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Old Nov 23, 2008, 10:11 AM
check the crazyplanes ...
flattermann's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2006
312 Posts
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A Really Big Rotator...

Hi there,

Autogyros have vertical rotation axles and -wings. Following the idea, wheather it could be possible to build a Rotational Flying Object with a horizontal rotation axle, I think, I found a solution

The 'ROTO VECTOR WING'

You can't imagine?

Have a look to the maiden-flight video

www.crazyplanes.de/roto1.wmv

More pictures, infos & details you will find on

www.crazyplanes.de/specials.htm

Have fun!

flattermann
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Old Nov 23, 2008, 10:28 AM
AND FOR MY NEXT TRICK....!
jodini's Avatar
Omaha Millard, Nebraska, United States
Joined Sep 2004
4,052 Posts
That's wild! No sure if it's really an autogyro, but it's cool!

Do you have a lot of control or are you at the mercy of the wind?
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Old Nov 23, 2008, 11:13 AM
check the crazyplanes ...
flattermann's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2006
312 Posts
Hi Jodini,

All my 3D-Vector-Control (unknown?) flying objects are easy to control like Slow-Flyers. Except, if the wind blows too strong
This morning (Germany), we hat around 1-2 bft. , so you are right: I was a little bit at the mercy of the wind...

Nevertheless - Proof of Concept was O.K.:
Now it's possible to fly a rotator like my 'ROTO-VECTOR-WING'

For sure, this is not a autogyro. Don't know, what category in this forum could cover the ability of this unknown flying object at its best....thought, that the ability of my rotator to auto-rotate (on a horizontal axle) is not so far away from the rotation of the autogyros (with their vertical rotation-axles) ...


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Last edited by flattermann; Nov 23, 2008 at 11:31 AM.
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Old Nov 23, 2008, 12:10 PM
It was a GLITCH! Honestly!
SafeLandings's Avatar
Stourport on Severn ,Worcestershire, United Kingdom
Joined Dec 2007
4,800 Posts
Not an Autogyro but certainly very interesting flying machine thanks for posting your videos..
Another off beat subject that I find interesting and would certainly like to try in the future is the fanwing...take a look at this video or just do a search on youtube for fanwing....now back to some autogyro building!!


FanWing Demonstration Flight at ParcAberporth International UAV/S Event June 2008 (5 min 26 sec)
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Old Nov 23, 2008, 12:52 PM
check the crazyplanes ...
flattermann's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2006
312 Posts
I knew that - not so bad - but not mysterious enough: All problems are solved, and: This FanWing has rudders - I hate rudders
All my experimentals fly without rudders (also my triple-gyro...)
I can't break with that tradition....

My special interest is to build flying objects with new functional ideas, people would say '...impossible' - on the first view.

Why not coming next: A flying object (Gyrocopter?), flying with it wings like a 'normal' winged plane (or Gyrocopter), but also able to change its flight condition to full rotation of the whole object, and fly like a 'rotator' ... and so on.

This would be absolutely useless - but big fun

flattermann
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Old Nov 23, 2008, 06:08 PM
Time for another motto!
Utrecht, The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2006
1,413 Posts
well if it is crazy ideas you want: make a flying wing with three separate parts: 2 wings and a pod with the motor on it. Make wings rotatable around their length, so that in one position they point the same direction as the motor and in the other point in opposite directions, with the motor perpendicular. The torque from the motor will spin the wings/rotor the other way, like some sort of coaxial heli. You will probably need a custom mixer for the different flight phases, but you might get vtol capability combined with a fast flying wing. Might even be useful for a UAV, if you can get the hovering stable enough.
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Old Nov 24, 2008, 03:24 AM
check the crazyplanes ...
flattermann's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2006
312 Posts
Hi JelleB,

On the first view, your idea seems to be functionable - but not as a autogyro
On the second view, I think, this type of 'flying saucer' could only be able to hover up and down, not more
Or did you think about a flying object like the attatched?


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Old Nov 24, 2008, 05:36 AM
Time for another motto!
Utrecht, The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2006
1,413 Posts
It all depends on the micro controller that does the mixing. Each wing has a servo + control surface, and provided that the rpms are not too high, those should be able to control the plane in hover mode. The controller just needs to keep track what is front and what is back, for instance by scanning the horizon. Or attach a tail that can turn independently from the motor-pod. Add gyro with some creative mixing so that it keeps still in the turbulent propwash. It should be possible to control the thing in hover mode by moving the tail in the opposite of the desired direction.
The tailless configuration seem more simple to me, but you need a sophisticated controller to do all the mixing etc. I have never seen a heli rotor directly controlled by servos, but if you keep the rpms low enough, the reaction time of the servos would be fast enough (120 rpm -> 2/sec -> 500 ms/rotation -> 125 ms per quadrant, a slow servo claims a reaction time of 20ms-> should be doable).

I'll see if I can make a sketch of this concept, that might explain a lot.

EDIT: oops, I missed that servo reaction time by a factor of ten, and 120 rpm is very low. That makes it hard to pull this off with standard servos. Perhaps it is possible to change the gear ratio inside the servo to sacrifice torque for speed? Anyway, time to fire up inkscape to produce some sketches.
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Last edited by JelleB; Nov 25, 2008 at 07:54 AM. Reason: added pic to clarify
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Old Nov 26, 2008, 02:59 AM
check the crazyplanes ...
flattermann's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2006
312 Posts
Hi JelleB,

Coming back to the philosophy of St. Exépury: '...Things won't become better, when you have to add something - things are perfect, when you cannot leave out something more..'

Your idea seems to me too uncomfortable: 2 Rotors, control-surfaces (rudders, I hate rudders :-)) . Servos, 1 BL-Motor, and - the big helper - a gyro (or 2, or 3...) and a 'a sophisticated controller to do all the mixing'.

I prefer controlling my planes by myself, otherwise - thrill is gone .

With thrust-vectoring I realized some very different -rudderless- projects within the last 2 years, using a 3D - p u l l - vector-unit:

-the first triple-rotor-autogyro without any control-surface,
-the first forward-backward-flyer without any control-surface
-a lot of very different kites without any control-surface, but vector-units
-the first autogyronal and horizontally rotating wing with pendulum-stabilization

So: Why not realizing your idea - a flying rotor, fully controllable over all axles - by using only 2 (4) Servos and 1 (2) BL-Motor(s) with its rpm-controller - and only 1 rotor ...?

I am sure: with this small equipment it's possible to make a much more simplier fully controllable vertical rotating flying object - no gyros, no mixer-programming.
The key to build up this flying object I think is the thought of 'deaccelaration' - what means: lowest rotational speed possible (60-80 rpm) and excentrically placed 1 or 2 pull-vectoring-units.

And the main (unusefull, I know...) thing: a rotor with an asymetrical design.

With these components, the asymetric Rotor should be able to do controlled VTOL a n d flying without rotation - like a 'normal' plane.

That means: This flying object could do twice in one and change its flight-abilities from rotation to non-rotation and back...and, with regard to this thread: able to do auto-rotation..like an autogyro.

Crazy enough? ...impossible?

Wait a little ... it's coming next

flattermann
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Old Nov 26, 2008, 07:16 AM
Time for another motto!
Utrecht, The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2006
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The first 'rotor' you saw is the prop. Are you ok with a prop or is that a problem too? I theory you might be able to control it by moving the motor around (thrust vectoring) but I think it would be simpler to just use them in the wings (it's simpler that way). So the Bill of Materials would be: 1 motor/power system driving 1 prop. 2 servos for direction, 1 to drive the wing-configuration and this 'fabled' mixing processor. You need the electronic help to replace the mechanical mixing normally done in a heli swashplate, and to make the switch between the different flying modes.

You might be correct that the wing reconfiguration might not be necessary: I have read about a free-flight one bladed 'heli' that consisted of not much more then one blade/wing with an prop/engine on the end. Something similar might be done by using TV on a flying wing, and pulling the tv unit to one side to get into heli mode (essentially a powered flat spin). The main problem again is how to control such a beastie, because it rotates much too fast for direct human input.
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Old Nov 26, 2008, 04:52 PM
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Palo Alto, California, United States
Joined Jan 2003
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Here is an old video of an aircraft with fuselage that is similar to the rotating wing design:

Free-Wing Autorotating Airplane (1 min 17 sec)


Here are some videos of asymmetric helicopter/autorotating designs:

Single Wing model experiments (7 min 46 sec)


Steve
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Old Nov 27, 2008, 05:53 AM
Time for another motto!
Utrecht, The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2006
1,413 Posts
Nice videos Steve! It's too bad that they are not very controllable in hover mode. I guess that that is where some processor trickery is needed. They all seem to have a very moderate rpm when spinning, so some servos should be able to do it.
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Last edited by JelleB; Nov 27, 2008 at 10:24 AM. Reason: verbs...
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Old Nov 27, 2008, 11:59 AM
check the crazyplanes ...
flattermann's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2006
312 Posts
... these 1992/1995 videos show clearly, how a autorotating unit could work:
-asymetric wing/fuselage
-asymetric drive.
I am sure: If Steve could have taken use of the nowadays-equipment like small brushless-motors + controllers, LiPo-Accus, small Carbon-Fibre tubes: he could develop a much slower rotating wing with a secure control.

But - so far I explained - the focus of my idea is going more far than a rotating wing: I want to design a winged and vectorized rotating flying object, that can as well start and fly controlled as a 'Rotator' and as a 'Normal Plane' - without rotation... And change between these modes during flight... using no flight controlls, but a 3D- vectoring unit.

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Old Dec 01, 2008, 04:26 AM
Time for another motto!
Utrecht, The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2006
1,413 Posts
Flatterman, your desire to control such a rotor is commendable, but I don't think humans have that ability without some form of mixing to something not rotating (either with a swashplate or via electronic means). This summer a friend and me tried our small planes together at the right wingtip with 20' of string so the planes were forced to fly around each other. This proved very hard to control. If the rotational speed is higher, I don't think things will get easier.
But even without cyclic control, you can have fun. Eg. a flying wing that can be hand-launched into a flat spin, climbs out of it and transitions to normal flight would be very impressive /methinks. With vectored thrust something like that might be attainable, I might even try it myself.
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Old Dec 01, 2008, 05:09 AM
check the crazyplanes ...
flattermann's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2006
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'...with vectored thrust something like that might be attainable..'

I am sure: it is attainable.

In the past, I made some experiences with modified 3D-vectorized mono-wings (symetric design), when changing its flight-modes between rotation (as flatspins) and normal flight... and that lead me into the thoughts of this crazy idea.

Tree aspects of these experiments have not been satisfying:

1. I could not gain height when spinning, and by mean of this, I could not start within the rotation-mode.

2. During rotation, the mono-wing could not change enough its direction by vector-steering.

3. Rotation speed was too high.

At this time, I could not expect more, because the wingspan was too small (130cm), the lift-off weight too ´much (around 340 grs) and the symetric Design and wing-profile not optimized for the pupose of flying within 2 different modes with an acceptable quality.

But I am sure to realize such an 'asymetric vectorized double-mode-monowing' (ghorsh, what a word! ) using now an asymetric 3D-vector-unit and designing the asymetric mono-wing for the lowest rotation-speed possible (appr. 60 rpm) with full control, as well for flights like a 'normal' mono-wing.
That means: Using the lightest materials (CF-tubes, MYLAR) and components (e.g. a 9grs. bl-motor with around 300grs. thrust).

For the first prototype, I am thinking of a flightweight around 200grs. (+ -20grs) and a wingspan of 140-160cm.
And: using effective construction-elements of different kites I vectorized in the past.

Will see...

flattermann
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Last edited by flattermann; Dec 01, 2008 at 07:23 AM.
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