Originally Posted by TedFlack

They are still Marbleheads just with a almost one design rig, but that rig is class legal. It is the cheapest way I know of to have such a high performance boat and have a good size fleet to race with, 8 to 10 boats is the average turnout.

Stop right there!

Those boats are not "limited" with a corrector weight or whatever to try and make a "level playing field"
The only thing you guys limited was the Money. A+ IDEA! and it works.



At the end of the day they're just one of the Thousands of Marblehead designs! They just happen to be 23 identical ones! What's the difference between 23 Paradoxes on one pond? What's the difference between 23 Vipers on one pond?

Why not bring all 23 of them to the 2013 M-class nationals and run them all out there, and see how they do in a fleet of 100?

Originally Posted by Wick Smith

Also, does anyone have any comments on Stanley's last AMYA article. Are there truely no USA manufaturers left? If there was, is anyone interested in new boats anymore? Or is the class just sailing locally with whatever they can get used.

Ok, first, It's official. Will Lesh of Tippecanoe boats has purchased the Bob Sterne Viper Marblehead tooling.
I hope he sells a thousand boats. Best of luck Will. You've got my support.


Secondly, unfortunatley Standley is incorrect.
The M class already had Suppliers, previous to Tippecanoe purchasing the Moulds. Companies such as.. Well... TIPPECANOE! with their T50!

Here's a list of current USA Suppliers I can come up with, sure it's few, we can do better.



Tippiecanoe T50:
http://www.modelsailboat.com/t50mod.html

HartmanSoling 50/M:
http://www.hartmanmodelboats.com/HMBSOLINGOD.htm

GRP Soling 50/M:
http://www.modelyachting.com/product...g50/index.html

Ludwig Soling 50/M:
(Website down)

GRP Sun-Wind:
http://www.modelyachting.com/product...ind/index.html

This hobby shop still has a Dumas etchells:
http://www.happyhobby.com/hobb_html/dumas.htm

Sublime Boat Works Naskeag:
http://www.sublimeboatworks.com/Naskeag.html

Sublime Boat Works Peony:
http://www.sublimeboatworks.com/Peony.html

Originally Posted by TedFlack

Gregg,

What you say is true, except in Detroit the class was dying a rapid death so they came up with a few rules that everyone thought would help keep interest up. Simple really, they/we use a B or C rig with sails that Wick makes at a very reasonable cost and an aluminum mast that Wick had made and sells very cheap. Guess what, the Marblehead class is now the biggest fleet in our club. They are still Marbleheads just with a almost one design rig, but that rig is class legal. It is the cheapest way I know of to have such a high performance boat and have a good size fleet to race with, 8 to 10 boats is the average turnout.

No arguments at all. If I lived near Detroit I would have one too. And yes, it is probably a good thing for the Marblehead class.

Calling on Detroit to host the 2013 Marblehead Class nationals.
You guys have 23 Marbleheads..... Our Class secretary says....... all it takes is a club that is pretty sure they can get Five


What say you Detroit?

OMG, I can't stop laughing!!!!! That's up to the powers to be about the Nationals. Though if they were close by I wouldn't mind showing up and racing...

There needs to be a clarification made, all of the 23 boat in our fleet are NOT all the same designed hull. They all do carry the same rigs and sails though. The few rules that are in place are nothing drastic in my opinion.

John

Originally Posted by breakwater

Calling on Detroit to host the 2013 Marblehead Class nationals.
You guys have 23 Marbleheads..... Our Class secretary says....... all it takes is a club that is pretty sure they can get Five


What say you Detroit?

Originally Posted by mav913

There needs to be a clarification made, all of the 23 boat in our fleet are NOT all the same designed hull. They all do carry the same rigs and sails though. The few rules that are in place are nothing drastic in my opinion.

John

Just to clafiry,
Isn't that the entire point of the Marblehead class? They are all different?

Originally Posted by mav913

OMG, I can't stop laughing!!!!! That's up to the powers to be about the Nationals. Though if they were close by I wouldn't mind showing up and racing...

Well,
No actually. It's up to the class to motivate and steer us the direction that we want the class to head. Without working together, we'll sink. Maybe somebody will pull on the same end of this rope.
If you were a registered Marbleheader, which, by the way you are entitled to be, and encouraged to be, you would have recieved the statement from the Class Secretary.....
Not Dictator....
Secretary. He works for us.

It reads:
"Your M Class Secretary is looking for a club to host the 2013 M Class Nationals. So far there have been no inquiries. All it takes is a club that is pretty sure they can get five registered M Class boats to appear at the Nationals. If your club is interested, please contact me, Your M Class Secretary."

Before you get too excited, while the club may be an AMYA Club, there is still that requirement all boats at a National Event (and members) must be registered and AMYA members.

Seems like that would be the first thing to focus on ..... as noted, some of the guys have no interest in being an AMYA member when they can race their own boats "without" a membership and be just as happy, have just as many races. etc. Hats off to a club who "allows" non-AMYA members to race. A few more clubs like that might shake the "M's" out of storage without a need to join the AMYA and once on the water, the "push to join" could take place.

Originally Posted by Dick L.

Before you get too excited, while the club may be an AMYA Club, there is still that requirement all boats at a National Event (and members) must be registered and AMYA members.

Yup, you are right.
But no-one needs to register right this instant. They could send in their 7-bucks just before the envent to become qualified.

Usually a regatta costs atleast $50 to enter anyways.
The entry fee pays for your lunch, drinks, trophies, and, it's in a club's interest to host an event anyway. They get exposure, as well as regatta or "pond" fees to maintain their club/facilities, maintain the port-o-potty, kill the algae, whatever.
So, a $7 registration fee seems Inconceqential at that point.

If not Detroit, they why not Spring Lake.
The "Vintage" Marblehead Nationals will be held there next year. Why not piggy-back on that for a even larger M-Class EVENT?
Yes, the boats are different... and Yes, they are all still Marbleheads.


Anyways.
If you want to get down to it.. There is supposed to be a Nationals in every class every year.

AMYA Bylaws:
7.8 It shall be the duty of the Class Secretary or class owners association to ensure that a National Championship Regatta is held annually. Regional Championship Regattas may also be held annually or at other regular intervals provided sufficient numbers of registered yachts are able to participate. Championship regattas shall be run strictly according to racing rules and regatta procedures established by the AMYA. (1995)

Breakwater,
Great list but I see a problem with it. Those may come up in a web search or in domes list of web links, but I doubt if you would ever see a boat from a couple of them.

Originally Posted by breakwater

AMYA Bylaws:
7.8 It shall be the duty of the Class Secretary or class owners association to ensure that a National Championship Regatta is held annually. Regional Championship Regattas may also be held annually or at other regular intervals provided sufficient numbers of registered yachts are able to participate. Championship regattas shall be run strictly according to racing rules and regatta procedures established by the AMYA. (1995)

A reminder note to the "Open Class" secretary might be in order since that "class" hasn't had anything since 1999 and probably long before that.

That "IS" the place where an even could be held for all classes of boats, AMYA recognized or not, and would be a viable agenda for any kind of handicapping - meaning old Marbleheads can be raced heads-up with new ones - same for "old" (???) IOM's, 10 Rater, US 1 Meters, and any other class that has had older boats surpassed by newer boats. I tried the promotion effort twice, and both times it was a series of "too complicated", too much work for race directors, etc. so will leave it up to the new blood to push it if it is interesting concept.

Originally Posted by Dick L.

A reminder note to the "Open Class" secretary might be in order since that "class" hasn't had anything since 1999 and probably long before that.

That "IS" the place where an even could be held for all classes of boats, AMYA recognized or not, and would be a viable agenda for any kind of handicapping - meaning old Marbleheads can be raced heads-up with new ones - same for "old" (???) IOM's, 10 Rater, US 1 Meters, and any other class that has had older boats surpassed by newer boats. I tried the promotion effort twice, and both times it was a series of "too complicated", too much work for race directors, etc. so will leave it up to the new blood to push it if it is interesting concept.

I Never Like, nor enjoy mixed class Sailing. Things are too different to have any real competitive fun, and nothing, should ever be handicapped (therefore stopping development)


There are four "Varieties" of Marblehead, which should be sailed together, and scored together, because designs within the variety are similar in speed.

-Traditional
-High Flyer
-Classic
-Modern

Originally Posted by breakwater

I Never Like, nor enjoy mixed class Sailing. Things are too different to have any real competitive fun, and nothing, should ever be handicapped (therefore stopping development)


There are four "Varieties" of Marblehead, which should be sailed together, and scored together, because designs within the variety are similar in speed.

-Traditional
-High Flyer
-Classic
-Modern

So how is sailing the older M's and scoring separate any different than sailing a one design fleet like detroit? You are essentially sailing designs frozen at some point in time. They might as well be a different class. Because I sure cant sail my M's in those classes even if they can sail in the same class as a new M.
The answer is either to resurrect the class and have someone put effort into promoting it with molds, hulls and such. or freeze the designs like some of the other classes have done, which allows old boats can be sailed competitively.

Originally Posted by slotracer577

So how is sailing the older M's and scoring separate any different than sailing a one design fleet like detroit? You are essentially sailing designs frozen at some point in time. They might as well be a different class. Because I sure cant sail my M's in those classes even if they can sail in the same class as a new M.
The answer is either to resurrect the class and have someone put effort into promoting it with molds, hulls and such. or freeze the designs like some of the other classes have done, which allows old boats can be sailed competitively.

You are 100% right.
Sailing the older Ms and scoring seperatley is not any different than than an OD in Detroit.
Designs are (For the most part) frozen in time.

You are also 100% right.
They Might as well be a different class.
Progressions in hull design are much faster over time & Materials.

I won't argue that one bit, and I never have.
But, They are not a separate class. If each "Variety" was a separate class... Well, each variety would have to host it's own separate class Nationals. And own separate class Regionals, and own separate class regattas, and own separate class regularly scheduled club racing.






You know,
Had the "Classic Marblehead" class initiative passed, They would have had to hold their own Nationals? And Regionals?... etc.







So, If everyone wants to branch-out and make separate classes. That's fine.
Somebody, Make a Classic Marblehead Class, and host a Classic Marblehead Nationals. I'll be there!
So, who's hosting it and when is it going to be?
When can I gear up for the Classic Marblehead Region 1s, and where do I need to go for them?

Or, Consolodate the entire class, accept that they are all different, and move forward as one-class with a whole bunch of different varieties.

Breakwater

I have to agree with almost everything you are & have been saying...

If you choose a class then you expect over time things will develop & improve (or fall back as the case may be).

Such is the Joy of Development Classes..

What usually occurs however is the vast Increase in Cost just to stay competitive & as prices increase the numbers able to afford the latest & greatest drop away & at the same time the competition shrinks.

Eventually classes dwindle in numbers.

The Loyalty to a Class then brings the ideas about Time Period Boats, One Design etc.. What fits in each category is always open to debate & not easily resolved as when you pick a time in development some at the beginning will say those at the top end of the period shouldn't be included. You then come down to a One Design.

To then divide the current classs into another sub-set just means the class gets further broken up.

The Vintage Idea has merit merely just to get Boats on the water. But it only takes one skipper to want to be that little bit more competitive with a newer faster design, then the concept is lost as that skipper becomes excluded.

This happens in lots of classes & the IOM is soon to feel the pinch... There just aren't the numbers with the Dollars to compete with a new boat every 1 to 2 years.

I would suggest a rating system for each boat & at the same time a rating for each skipper. Combine the two & work through a handicap system.

That way it doesn't have to be First Past the Post that wins the day.. Happens a lot in Multi Class Fleet Racing.