Originally Posted by TheWoodCrafter

I say the technology is not ready because of the limitations involved.

Whether it is solar power, wind power or electric vehicles, the limitations are still there and they are big.
They will work in some areas or instances but not all. Where ICE does work always.
One of the biggest obstacles for cars is the limited distance and recharge time.

The shear size of our country will limit wide spread use of electrics cars for decades.
Infrastructure will take so long to install that by the time it is in place the battery technology could have changed.
Similar to NiCad to LiPo.

To be an electric car owners you have to be willing to put up with the limitations and I don't see the majority of people doing that.
If it can't provide the same level of use at a lower cost, electric cars will not be widely adopted.

Batteries are probably the biggest hurdle that needs to be addressed for electric vehicles to be viable. My Leaf can be charged in 30 minute or less with the right charging station, but fast charging degrades the battery as I understand it. The batteries are probably the big cost for electric vehicles. Once batteries can safely be charged fast, and they get cheaper, EVs are probably very close to being ready for prime time. The next hurdle is that we need enough fast charging stations that we can make longer trips in our electrics.

Dan

Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin

I see that A123 filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection yesterday.

Dan

Yep

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/1...89F0UA20121016

Originally Posted by TheWoodCrafter

I say the technology is not ready because of the limitations involved.

Whether it is solar power, wind power or electric vehicles, the limitations are still there and they are big.
They will work in some areas or instances but not all. Where ICE does work always.
One of the biggest obstacles for cars is the limited distance and recharge time.

The shear size of our country will limit wide spread use of electrics cars for decades.
Infrastructure will take so long to install that by the time it is in place the battery technology could have changed.
Similar to NiCad to LiPo.

To be an electric car owners you have to be willing to put up with the limitations and I don't see the majority of people doing that.
If it can't provide the same level of use at a lower cost, electric cars will not be widely adopted.

Fair enough, but we are approaching the threshold.

Take a look a the Tesla Model S which has >200 miles pure-electric range and comes with lifetime FREE fast recharging from their network of solar-powered "supercharger" stations with 4 already operating across CA and a large network planned to spread right across the USA and southern Canada.

Yes, it is still an imperfect solution in some ways, yes the Model S (and Model X) are still expensive as an up-front expense, but they demonstrate that the technology and infrastructure problems not only can be solved, but have been solved and that now it is primarily a scale and attitude problem.

Better Place offer a different approach which is also functional in small geographic pockets today but again demonstrates the technological viability.

Originally Posted by kgfly

Fair enough, but we are approaching the threshold.

Take a look a the Tesla Model S which has >200 miles pure-electric range and comes with lifetime FREE fast recharging from their network of solar-powered "supercharger" stations with 4 already operating across CA and a large network planned to spread right across the USA and southern Canada.

Yes, it is still an imperfect solution in some ways, yes the Model S (and Model X) are still expensive as an up-front expense, but they demonstrate that the technology and infrastructure problems not only can be solved, but have been solved and that now it is primarily a scale and attitude problem.

Better Place offer a different approach which again is functional in small pockets today but again demonstrates the technological viability.

That is awesome, I hope more stuff like this happens, however I am afraid that costs can only go up as they add more charging locations, you are either gonna pay for it in the cost of the car, or pay at the recharge facility (which I wouldnt mind if a "refill" is reasonably priced)

Note that the cost to operate an EV is very similar to the cost to operate our electric planes. e.g. - the cost to charge the battery is inconsequential compared to the cost of the battery. EV batteries will need to be replaced at some point, much in the same way that we need to replace our lipolys. A 200+ mile battery for a vehicle the size of a Tesla S will cost ~$40K to replace...

Originally Posted by mrforsyth

Note that the cost to operate an EV is very similar to the cost to operate our electric planes. e.g. - the cost to charge the battery is inconsequential compared to the cost of the battery. EV batteries will need to be replaced at some point, much in the same way that we need to replace our lipolys. A 200+ mile battery for a vehicle the size of a Tesla S will cost ~$40K to replace...

ouch!

Originally Posted by mrforsyth

Note that the cost to operate an EV is very similar to the cost to operate our electric planes. e.g. - the cost to charge the battery is inconsequential compared to the cost of the battery. EV batteries will need to be replaced at some point, much in the same way that we need to replace our lipolys. A 200+ mile battery for a vehicle the size of a Tesla S will cost ~$40K to replace...

perhaps hobby king will stock them in different c-ratings!

There are different business models.

For example with Better Place you never buy the battery. You may buy or lease the car itself but you lease the battery. This reduces the up-front purchase price and means you never have to pay for a replacement battery.

You take a contract for a monthly rate that covers the battery and the 100% green energy used to recharge it at home, at a charge spot or via a swap-n-go service station. For someone that does 200 miles a day the costs are comparable or below fuel costs in most of the world where people pay vastly more than US consumers pay. I don't have all the figures to know where the economic crossover points are, but what this illustrates is that there are no technological barriers today, only mindset and scale hold us back. That is why government incentives of various forms are both needed and ethical to push the scale across the threshold that will allow purely private enterprise to take over.

Originally Posted by kgfly

That is why government incentives of various forms are both needed and ethical to push the scale across the threshold that will allow purely private enterprise to take over.

I really don't believe government subsidies are the answer.
I believe "Government doesn't create jobs", industries or technologies.
If the product is viable and useful it will generate the sales itself.
In a free market place the best product will sell without government incentives.

Government does provide incentives for the research to create the technologies but it is temporary and if the product is viable it will stand on it's own.

Then to be fair, remove the immense subsidies that go to agriculture, oil and coal and see how the economic assessment works out for renewable energy and electric vehicles.

There is no such thing as the 'free market', it is a theoretical fiction even in the US.

Originally Posted by kgfly

Then to be fair, remove the immense subsidies that go to agriculture, oil and coal and see how the economic assessment works out for renewable energy and electric vehicles.

There is no such thing as the 'free market', it is a theoretical fiction even in the US.

While you're at it, add public transportation to the list as well. There wouldn't be much, if any, public transportation in the US without government subsidies.

Originally Posted by kgfly

Then to be fair, remove the immense subsidies that go to agriculture, oil and coal and see how the economic assessment works out for renewable energy and electric vehicles.

The agriculture subsidies are not to get the item to sell.
Those subsidies are for an entirely different reason.
I don't know of any subsidies for oil and coal.

There is no such thing as the 'free market', it is a theoretical fiction even in the US.

Well of course there is.
I take it you have never owned your own manufacturing business in the United State.
I have and I can tell you the supply and demand market works very well without government intervention.

Originally Posted by TheWoodCrafter

I really don't believe government subsidies are the answer.

Originally Posted by TheWoodCrafter

The agriculture subsidies are not to get the item to sell.

Priceless.

" 100% green energy used to recharge it at home,"

Where do you get your electricity. Mine comes mostly from OIL fired deisel generators. You are exculsively on Solar??????

Les

Originally Posted by Ohmic

Priceless.

Not contributing much to the discussion with a comment like that.

Originally Posted by TheWoodCrafter
The agriculture subsidies are not to get the item to sell.

What I meant by this was that agriculture subsidies is a complete different subject and has nothing to do with the current discussion.
We are talking about government stepping in and trying to make something out of nothing by lowering the price of a product.
Don't we comdem other countries governments for lowering the true price of a product and then selling it in the U.S.?
Agriculture subsidies do something completely different.
They falsely prop up the price of the product.
Besides, I don't believe in them either.