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Old Jan 05, 2014, 10:45 AM
San Diego California
Joined Dec 2006
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RC Command Input

Probably many enthusiasts discussed about this already but I see RC command input manner has many years of the transition history.
Just for flying models;
1. Single slide switch with self return (normally open)
2. Single push button switch (normally open)
3. Single push button switch (normally close)
4. Self neutral toggle switches.
5. Direct stick to the cantilever support potentiometer
6. Open gimbals for pinching sticks (long throw)
7. Closed gimbals with adjustable sticks
8. Three channel single stick control (twisting)
I forgot the official name of mechanism but the most popular and surviving RC proportional radio command input manner is "stick goes through the guide grooves via ball fulcrum" for any modes and pinching or on thumbs.
I currently only fly with mode 1 on thumbs though.
Are we moving into touch screen control for next?
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Old Jan 05, 2014, 11:01 AM
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The Netherlands, OV, Almelo
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Old, your wrote:

Are we moving into touch screen control for next?

I don't think so, most important part of modern gimbals seems to be double sided tape and hot glue!

The pictures I showed before were really vintage sticks!

TF
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Old Jan 05, 2014, 11:09 AM
Zor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurus Flyer View Post

The sticks are an important part of a transmitter, that's why I always have most attention for these. It's nearly impossible to make these yourself or it cost a lot of time. That's why I use Simprop brand gimbals in my scratch built transmitters. Good and available for me in the past.

A photograph of first generation gimbals is shown in picture 1. Neutralizing is as good as the second generation gimbals, see photograph 4, watertightness is even better. Friction is a little bit more just as some play in center position of the stick, but not in neutralizing of the potentiometer!

The second generation, picture 3 and 4, gimbals of Simprop I am going to use in my Simla transmitter. The picture of a small study of these I can show in 4.
Resolution for these wire wound gimbals is better than 0,2 %!

All these sticks are far better than modern gimbals.

Casing for the transmitters, I prefer thick aluminum!

TF
Hi Taurus Flyer,

I wish to thank you for the pictures and your spirit of self-building some radio gear.

One thing I did not figure out yet is the 509 positons with only 255 windings.
I can see that the cursor can be touching only one wire of the windings and can touch two if it sits between the two adjacent turns.
I also wonder what is the 0 - 50 - 100 nomenclature in the picture.

Any further explanation would be appreciated.

Happy New Year.

Zor
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Old Jan 05, 2014, 12:21 PM
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The Netherlands, OV, Almelo
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Zor, what you wrote:

I can see that the cursor can be touching only one wire of the windings and can touch two if it sits between the two adjacent turns.

will theoretical result in 509 potentiometer resistance dividing positions (with some phantacy!) to show wire wound this way is accurate for the purpose.
I see in this first picture 0.5 % resolution was still noted, later I made the combined picture of earlier post, 0.2 % resolution seems to be an acceptable approach, especially in mid range .

When observing the travel, 0 - 100 % is used in the gimbal of which 50 % is center position.

The counterpart is the "modern gimbal" for example of the Taranis transmitter.
See :http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=6855

Cees
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Old Jan 05, 2014, 02:07 PM
Zor
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Taurus Flyer,

You and I are thinking the same way and understand the facts correctly I believe.

I have often read about the "so called" improved resolution of recent systems like going from 1024 to 2048 and even 4096. It makes me wonder how the potentiometers in the transmitters and in the servos are made to have a cursor able to divide a DC voltage of about 5 volts as I measured into that many levels for the ATD (Analog To Digital) converter and DTA (Digital To Analog) converter to function with that much resolution. I calculated the contact point in those potentiometer to have to be something like barely a few thousands of an inch.

I made some tests with DS821 servos and could not get more resolution than about 300 to 350 as I recall. At the time I posted pictures of my test setup. That must be now about two or three years ago. I did not get any feedback. I remember commenting that this was an advertising gimmick to attract more sales due to that supposed improvement. As always a chain is never stronger than the weakest link.

Some day I may learn more details about these systems.
It is not a necessity to fly our models but it is an interesting aspect fo the curious folks like me.

Best regards,

Zor
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Old Feb 06, 2014, 09:45 AM
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Costs? My first proportional was the Bonner Digimite. Totally reliable in itself, but rather prone to short-term interference, and heavy. 8 channels, but I only ever used four. It had a totally useless failsafe system but I never crashed a plane when using it. I bought it in 1964 (I think). It was 515 including four servos. The Austin Mini I bought new the year before was 530.

The DeeBee Quadruplex, just as good, perhaps better, than the Bonner, but a more 'old fashioned' electronic design with tubes in the transmitter, was about 375 here, as was the Sampey 404. Never saw anyone using a Sampey. The first worthwhile UK system appeared when Harry Brooks got Doug Spreng over here for a year or so to show us how to do it.

Today the base Mini, made by BMW in a UK factory costs about 10,000. Far more sophisticated than the one I had but so are the radios. So the Digimite would be about 9500 in todays money in the UK. It was about a years wages for me at the time. But a close relative who was fond of me died....

Personally I think comparison with another 'article' is the only accurate way to measure inflation. It works across countries and is not up to the whims of statisticians or government bodies trying to prove something. The Austin mini was a basic low cost car then, though not the lowest of all, and the present one is a low cost car now, but not as 'basic', but neither are the radios So I reckon my 9500 is about right, though it may sound crazy.

First electric? The first r/c electric I am aware of was Colonel Taplin, later responsible for the Taplin Twin. He used a 'Radio Queen' of about 7 foot span. powered by an Emerson motor and a big stack of Venner silver-zinc rechargeable cells which gave about 30 volts. They have an energy density as good as NimH, or so I believe, About 1955. A while later it successfully flew across the English Channel, about 25 miles.
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Old Apr 28, 2014, 09:35 AM
San Diego California
Joined Dec 2006
355 Posts
70' Ace Pulse Commander

It amazed me "Ace produced the Pulse Commander in one form for another spanning 3 decades, making it the longest enduring of any R/C radio ever manufactured". This is a set with Baby Twin actuator which is for up to 40" size plane. It was $15.75 in 78=15.75x3.75=$59 in 2014. Not bad at all. Beside these the on board weight is Rx 28.3g + Actuator 22.3g + NiCd 19g = Only 70g total!
Proportional rudder only nitro plane,,,, nostalgia for old boys.
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Old Apr 28, 2014, 12:58 PM
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And that mid-60s Kraft KP-6 would cost...just over $3700 NOW???

Dear Balsabird & Fellow RC-Groupers:

The PIPE Here again...not much luck on the job search front for the present, so I'm back here posting, and lookin' forward to possibly applying for SOME sort of income assistance from the US government. Any job that would require me to be "on my feet" most or all the time are ones I CAN'T do, from a pair of surgeries
in 1985 and 2006 that were on OR around my left hip, that left that leg "too painful" for that sort of work, if I stand on it for too long without walking around for a short while, or if I stay on my feet continuously for more than two hours without sitting .

But back to "costs of over a generation ago"...when I checked Balsabird's vintage Kraft Systems ad from the mid-60s advertising their dual-stick six channel KP-6 system for USD $489.95 "back in the day" in 1964, I found a website that could figure the "adjusted for inflation" cost for that radio in today's funds...

...would you believe that KP-6 radio system's cost would be some $3,700.00 in 2014 dollars ?

I also used that site to figure the 2014 cost for the formerly $515.00 approximate cost (in 1978 dollars for the sake of comparison) for a complete Kraft KP-7CS seven channel knobby radio system from the late 1970s...that cost was a shocker as well in today's funds, at some $1,870 US dollars in "2014 dollars", for a system that didn't even have the reversing switches, adjustable throws for high & low rates, etc. that the Ace Silver Seven transmitter KITS from 1980-81 were offering for barely over a TENTH of that price, and that I built a pair of very useful knobby radios with...so, back then, it REALLY paid to be able for someone to BUILD their own radio !

IT CAN still pay for one to build their own radio, however, IF one knows where to look for everything involved. For the Tx, of course, GORDON ANDERSON has the set of "guts' to go with from his MS2K encoder design, which can be used with just about anyone's 2.4 GHz RF gear, and if one's got their Ham ticket, his own 50 MHz VHF synthesized deck (which I've got a pair of already), and thanks to the HK people, even on 433 MHz at a full one watt of Ham-legal RF power as a likely future development.

Gordon came up with his own design for a 50 MHz receiver for the Hams, to quell concerns about 50 MHz Rx availability...a matching 2.4 GHz Rx to whatever one is using for the RF deck is the natural choice on that band, and HK's also got a matching 433 MHz Rx for their high-power Ham UHF deck.

For servos, Hitec's got about as complete a selection as one could want for both analog AND digital servos...and the versatility of A123's LiFePO4 cells has seen them being used more and more as Tx (3S cells, unregulated) and airborne (2S, sometimes with a silicon rectifier diode to drop the volts just a bit) battery packs.

I'm simply hoping to get SOME sort of monetary help soon, to have "some sort" of income once again...either with the incredible luck to actually FIND a new job (I'm still looking, believe me), or more likely (thanks to that gimpy leg, at least for the present) some US governmental assistance.

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE....!!
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Old Apr 28, 2014, 01:58 PM
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Here is a interesting website from this period in time, the late 1960's through the 1970's.
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/ele...ol-systems.htm

Quite a few of us bought the Heathkit radio gear way back then as we could make monthly payments for the stuff. But we had to put it together and solder the components, etc. There is actually a lot of wiring inside of the TX that you need to do. I think the wiring is probably the harder thing to do and still have it look reasonably neat in the process.

Circa 1975


circa 1968
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Old Apr 28, 2014, 06:32 PM
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I did, too...then I went for Ace RC instead..!!

Dear EarlWB:

The PIPE Here again - in fact, I still HAVE the nearly-complete brown vinylclad case from my very first radio, the Heathkit "Pack-17" TX-modularized ststem (RF module in the Tx) from 1976-77...it's likely to get one of my older (and current) MicroStar 2000 Mk.III encoders to use for flightsimming someday (when my existing MS2K-based knobby box gets converted to a later Mk.V MS2K encoder some time down the road) as I'm using my current complete MS2K knobby radio with one of my Mk.III MS2K encoders, used to convert a "dead" Ace MP8K Tx into a MicroStar 2000 that's "active" with my Aerofly Pro Deluxe flightsim. It only needs one of my previously mentioned GAA 50 MHz Tx RF boards hooked up and installed to fly any of the ten 50 MHz Rx-es I've got (eight Futaba R168DF, two FMA Quantum-8) that I've got for use when I can afford to return to the hobby.

And I DID make monthly payments to pay off the "Pack-17"...that's something that was also offered into at least the 1980s in the UK for RC fliers to help THEM afford their Skyleader, MacGregor and other UK-labeled RC systems of that era.


It's QUITE interesting that you mentioned the WIRING in a Heathkit RC Tx...one of the best parts of crafting the Ace RC Silver Seven radios I went with when I had to retire the originally crash-prone Heathkit system was the wiring, and Ace RC used the same basic wiring scheme for both the Silver Seven knobby radios I built the pair of, AND for the MicroPro 8000 computer radio they had out when the firm died out nearly 15 years ago. I still have ALL the instruction manuals for the Silver Seven and the "retrofit kit" for converting a Silver Seven into a MicroPro, and when I can manage to get SOME form of income...either from a job (if I'm fortunate enough!) or with US government help (does SSDI sound realistic?)...I've been planning on assisting my fellow members of the Yahoo MicroPro/MICROSTAR user group in providing for them, to make some side funds, the same sort of "already-to-go" complete wiring harness kit to either repair a vintage MP8K rig, or to craft up their own MicroStar encodered Tx, that I had available when I built either a Silver Seven or that attempt at a "retrofit" MicroPro 8000, which got the first of my pair of Mk.III MicroStar encoders instead.

I have two decades worth of past work experience in the electronics manufacturing industry to "bank on" for something like this, so I do know SOMETHING about wiring up a wide range of electronic gear...perhaps, if I could put that to good use again in the coming months, my fellow MicroStar users (and those who'd like to be) can have wiring harness kits that I've crafted for them, used by them to connect the components in their Tx-es, and be able to at least have a little "earned income" again on a small scale, to help with things for a return to the hobby someday.

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE....!!
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Old Apr 28, 2014, 08:55 PM
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Years ago I worked at Pro-Line Electronics. They had a board setup with a wiring loom for each of the different TX's they sold. A lady would lay out the various colored wires on the loom and tie them up as needed with each wire just the right length. Then another lady took the wire harness and would solder it into the TX. They had a production line setup and the TX's would move down the line as needed. It was pretty neat at the time. But even then the TX's had a lot of wires inside. But even our modern computer radios still have a large number of wires in them when you think about it.

I have thought about converting one of my Pro-Line radios over to use a new computer system, and 2.4ghz, but the modern systems use push button trims whereas the older systems used analog trims. So I haven't figured out a nifty way of doing the conversion so far.
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Old Apr 29, 2014, 06:44 AM
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Actually, Gordon's MS2K can use EITHER type of trim...even mixed if desired!

Quote:
Originally Posted by earlwb View Post
I have thought about converting one of my Pro-Line radios over to use a new computer system, and 2.4ghz, but the modern systems use push button trims whereas the older systems used analog trims. So I haven't figured out a nifty way of doing the conversion so far.

Dear EarlWB:

The PIPE Here yet again - as Gordon retired from his day job not very long ago, he's getting things sorted out in starting his own engineering firm out of his home at present. A good bit of his time WILL still be heavily involved in the RC hobby and in bettering the MS2K concept , and thanks to the newer, smaller-footprint MS2K Mk.IV and Mk.V's hardware design...the MS2K Mk.IV board is shown ai top, with an "experimental" prototype "Mk.VI" board in the purple laminate material below...



...those newer models of the MS2K encoder can work with BOTH analog AND digital trims, and can even have them MIXED, say, with digital trims for the aerodynamic channels, and an analog on the throttle!

One idea I had for Gordon to consider late in 2013 was the eventual possibility of needing to use an "existing solution", e.g. an open source hardware design that already exists, in place of the proposed "Mk.VI" purple prototype shown above for a "hardware home" to program the MS2K "firmware" that makes ANY computer radio operate in its intended fashion...after Gordon got one of what you can see below...



...he's now got an example of the popular Arduino Due (pronounced "doo-way", Italian for "two") "computer on a board" for experimentation purposes as the basis for an advanced RC TX encoder unit. With a PC board size barely any bigger than the area of the purpose-designed MS2K Mk.IV/Mk.V hardware, the Arduino Due can give a computer radio design a WHOLE lot more computing horsepower than most anything else he's ever considered for a "home" for the MS2K firmware programming to reside within.

That hardware option is one I suggested as none of us knows how much longer Gordon might want to whip up all-new custom hardware designs for the MicroStar 2000 concept of an owner-built RC radio. The Arduino series of hardware designs offers the option of creating custom, add-on "shield boards" to adapt them to an endless range of situations, and one such possibility might be for Gordon to design a shield board for the Due, that directly changes the Due's connector arrangement to exactly match the Mk.IV and Mk.V's connector geometry...AND make it much easier for various brands of Tx RF deck (Futaba/JR/Fursky/HobbyKing/etc.) to be used with such an encoder.

Lots of options to consider...please give the attached Adobe reader documents on the MicroStar 2000 Mk.IV encoder — which also cover the Mk.V design (the Mk.IV with USB connectivity) — a good look when time permits, to find out more about the MicroStar 2000 idea, as it'a about the most completely thought out way someone could have their very own, "owner-crafted" computer radio in the 21st century!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE....!!
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Old Apr 29, 2014, 12:52 PM
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It wasn't that expensive. I was about 13 in '77 and I bought my first 2 channel radio (MRC) for around $70. I worked selling golf balls from the ponds at the golf course along with washing cars and mowing lawns and I had a room full of balsa, airplanes and engines so it really wasn't that expensive.
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Old Apr 29, 2014, 02:57 PM
San Diego California
Joined Dec 2006
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Testor TA-1

In 1967, if a young boy was wishing RC plane for his Christmas present.
It costed his parents about $700 in 2014 value.
Yes, it was valuable so that he could learn a lot from it but also it was fuzzy primitive galloping ghost system. I hope he could fly that successfully.
The TA-1 casing is made of very solid steel with wooden print classy taste finish and the out put power was advertised 250mW.
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Old Apr 29, 2014, 08:09 PM
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The Pipe, yeah those are all great TX computer board solutions. I like them.
I originally was thinking of gutting out a existing computer TX system and using the parts in the old TX case. But since they were all using digital trims it made it a problem to convert. I had considered programming my own microcontroller board too. But to program in all the bells and whistles would take a long time. Plus the debugging etc. So I hadn't gotten around to it myself. Maybe if I get to retire and actually have some money left, I might be able to do something like that too.
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