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Old Nov 01, 2012, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by v8truckin View Post
lol! back to the olden days of the thread. Why i always frowned at the use of 2 internal bec on the esc's.

I do the same with the pulled stock esc's save em for a lesser model.
Ya tell me about it. The quality and lack of info on the ESCs leaving me with not bothering to try it that way. Notice the BECs don't keep burning up with the same ESC used in the FW single EDF models. No where near as much at least.
My guess is the lower quality makes them vulnerable and they are so boarder line that some work and some don't set up that way.

Why take the chance.
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 09:31 PM
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???? Max, I don't see where you got one iota of point that I said they don't work.. that is not in a single one of my posts.
And this all began when you said it does NOT change pitch.... which was my first response to that post.

Post #4761
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"Ah, No, not the same. I certainly can't use the flapperons as pitch control. In spoiler position, they don't create any pitch up. The flapperons sit too close to aircrafts neutral to have any other effect other than a break/lift device.

Even a high cambered wing at high AoA will pitch down just as any flapped straight wing. Since it can't control pitch its not a control surface; elevon, taileron, stabilator, Stab/elevator etc.

Elevons are well aft of the wings aerodynamic center, neutral and CG.
One bit you say spoilerons don't cause pitch up.... another, that you can't use flaperons as pitch control..... thus both saying they give you no pitch effect.
If they give you ANY then they do give you pitch control, even if it was minor/pathetic. But then you would say SOME, not NONE.
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 09:42 PM
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Flaperons work on ALL the aircraft I have used them on. The problem is that the pitch issue is more pain than the 'flaps' are of use.
Ailerons give too little angle, and possibly area, to be of great use as flaps.... plus you get the pitch change, quite dramatic in many, plus you lose aileron authority to some degree (not overly needed when landing).
So all in all, I decided they were a 'very poor man's way' of achieving some flap result... not enough to be worthwhile, and not even needed in most cases.

Then the Meteor..... same flaperon reasons as above (why not used). But in elevon terms they work great. Very measurable pitch improvement, which on a Habu/Meteor is lack lustre if just using elevator (as you alluded to indirectly). The elevon's good use is the exact reason flaperon is less useful - pitch effect. I use full elevator to aileron mix (100%)..... that gives the great pitch addition, at the cost of some level of lost aileron authority (50%??) - but you rarely use large aileron with large pitch change anyway so that becomes a moot point.
Though I guess you meant (not detailed enough outline) that I might not have liked flaperon because of the poor elevator authority the Meteor has to offset the pitch down? I more don't like the AMOUNT of pitch down you have to offset, just to get some lack-lustre 'flap' benefit. The return on the 'cost' was poor. And not even really required in its case - it lands nicely just as it is, or if you really wanted decent flap results you would add flaps and get that.

And I mainly used the Meteor as the reference to what amount of pitch change the Su should also be able to get. The elevator design or authority is irrelevant to that. The Su actually has tons more, so it would very easily deal with any amount of pitch change. But the point was the Meteor gets very good pitch gain from elevons (flaperon/spoileron same thing), so the Su should also.
Mind you that same fact that it has a ton of elevator authority also means elevons could be less use to even have - but we are talking about flaperons use on the Su anyway.
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
???? Max, I don't see where you got one iota of point that I said they don't work.. that is not in a single one of my posts.
And this all began when you said it does NOT change pitch.... which was my first response to that post.

Post #4761


One bit you say spoilerons don't cause pitch up.... another, that you can't use flaperons as pitch control..... thus both saying they give you no pitch effect.
If they give you ANY then they do give you pitch control, even if it was minor/pathetic. But then you would say SOME, not NONE.
My meaning was very specific. To his Elevon which is a pitch control surface meaning it can flip the plane cause it has sufficient moment to verses using the flapperon as a control device that while it may have a slight pitch moment, its not sufficient to induce control.
The reason why I was specific is several don't understand AC, Neutral etc look at a delta shaped wing but apply that thinking to a delta tailed config which has very different characteristics.
And when one is trying to get the fine tuning down, you can not apply one characteristic with the other and get the right answer.

So I was not contradicting myself. I was very specific in my wording. It does induce a slight moment but nothing that comes near to control especially since it doesn't have the counter moment as a spoiler creating any pitch up because the moment force is so weak.

Look at the pic. The tailerons are sitting at the datum line but the flapperons are deployed because while they do have greater moment at higher speeds, at lower speed where he said he want to use them its not that great.

Simple. You started over thinking that. How well they work???? so I guess SU and just about every designer out there using flapperons are just doing it for fun. We were never talking about a habu that has different characteristics so you just brought another counter point that doesn't apply.
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 09:51 PM
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In those pics:
The slats (whatever they are) camber re-profile probably exceed what pitch down the flaps/flaperons add.
Switch them off and let's see what it does then.... LOL.
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SU-4ever View Post
Fred, I might have explained myself badly...

Of course the F4C Yak was fiberglass, for somehing it weighed 25kg and used a Kerosene turbine...

I just mean this foam ultradetailed YAK is modeled after that one using the experience and effort set into the big one thanks to Vitaliy Robertus' Team.

Ehr, Max, did you just say Su-39?



Cheers!
Jandro.
It looks nice for a prototype. I wish they did it in 70mm ... something more manageable to fit into a car! Unless like the Su-35, they also allow the wings and fins to be removed ...
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Old Nov 01, 2012, 09:59 PM
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It looks nice for a prototype. I wish they did it in 70mm ... something more manageable to fit into a car! Unless like the Su-35, they also allow the wings and fins to be removed ...
Agreed. But I think this size if light the landing gear and available retract will fair better. A 70 it gets harder to get the servos near the wing tips for the ailerons and to squeeze any gear in the belly since retracts even for 70mm are almost as tall of the 90 and 100 size models.

But yes I hope they do have a removable wing or its not going in my car.
Wish they would just do a tube and L type joint.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 09:32 AM
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I'm having a hard time finding in this thread what the amp draw for the stock set up is. Can anyone provide some input?

The local hobby shop opens in about an hour and I'm wondering if some CC Phoenix Ice 50's will be up to the task. The stock ESCs are listed as 55 amp capable.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Whiskey Whiskey View Post
I'm having a hard time finding in this thread what the amp draw for the stock set up is. Can anyone provide some input?

The local hobby shop opens in about an hour and I'm wondering if some CC Phoenix Ice 50's will be up to the task. The stock ESCs are listed as 55 amp capable.
If I remember correctly my stock amp draw with the purple can motors was around 52-53 amps. The stock esc's didn't really leave much headroom so I went with cc 75's. IMHO I wouldn't go with cc 50.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 10:07 AM
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Here were my original static tests. Mind you that im using stronger batteries now so the #s are a lil higher now. The amp draw is for combined motors (2) not individual. I'd say min. go with the 55a that gives you a lil bit of head room and will keep em cooler than the 50a esc.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=843
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by fredmdbud View Post
It looks nice for a prototype. I wish they did it in 70mm ... something more manageable to fit into a car! Unless like the Su-35, they also allow the wings and fins to be removed ...
Is on pre-order now. I believe the wings and fins can be remove for transport. If you look closer on the pictures. And also, I believe Freewing is the manufacturer, so it should follow SU-35 way of production.

Ready2fly contract their Venom to Freewing. So it will be them again.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 11:06 AM
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I was hoping for some numbers on the stock setup. The manual details the 3D motors as, "2839-2200KV." The cans are bronze as well, not purple.

It doesn't really matter now, on further inspections this morning, I've found the gear door sequencer along with all the retracts are not operating. Even after isolating everything and using a servo tester. The only thing I can see that I'm missing on this isthose components don't operate off of convetional servo signals, via the sequencer? But if that were the case, the gear door would operate at least when connected to the sequencer.

If my vendor doesn't put out on resolving this, this is going to get more expensive than I anticipated...
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Whiskey Whiskey View Post
I was hoping for some numbers on the stock setup. The manual details the 3D motors as, "2839-2200KV." The cans are bronze as well, not purple.

It doesn't really matter now, on further inspections this morning, I've found the gear door sequencer along with all the retracts are not operating. Even after isolating everything and using a servo tester. The only thing I can see that I'm missing on this isthose components don't operate off of convetional servo signals, via the sequencer? But if that were the case, the gear door would operate at least when connected to the sequencer.

If my vendor doesn't put out on resolving this, this is going to get more expensive than I anticipated...
The link in the post I posted are for the stock 2300kv motors. Freewing switched to gold can 2300kv motors and ditched the 2200kv motors although the box states otherwise.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 11:40 AM
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Lots of useful info.

Disappointing to learn though that Freewing is just pushing a product out of the door like that with out keeping the customer up to date on what they have in-hand.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 11:53 AM
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45-50amps per side were the numbers that were generally found.

Two things though....
Since the ESCs are not in the duct for direct cooling more is better.
And if you are thinking to upgrade later, may as well get some ESCs fo that, 65-80amp.
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