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Old Oct 11, 2002, 09:43 PM
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Hacker B50 vs. Kontronik FUN 500?

I was wondering if there is much difference in efficiency btwn these geared motors, at similar cell counts and propping? According to some sim programs, like P-calc at DMA's web site, the Kontronik will give as much as 25% longer run time and almost the same thrust as the Hacker! Is it that much better, or is this program wrong? I was using the B50 9S and FUN 500-27 for comparison. Thanks... Brad
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Old Oct 12, 2002, 07:12 AM
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The B50 9S has a kV of 4100 and is quite a hot motor. It is geared 6.7:1 so the kV of the geared setup is 612.

The Fun500-27 has a kV of 2700 and is geared 5.2:1, giving a kV for the geared setup of 519. (Use the B50-10S , 6.7:1 for comparison and the kV will be 528 for the hacker vs 519 for the Kontronik - much closer)

This is why the runtime for the Kontronik is longer. By selecting the right wind for you application, both motors will be great, there are a few other differences however:

The B50 has a 5mm shaft on the motor. The Kontronic has a 3.2mm shaft.

The gear ratio doesn't really matter, although depending on your application you will be able to swing a slightly bigger prop with the 6.7:1 gearbox which may be more efficient. Also you are unlikely to run out of torque with the 6.7. So if you use the 10 wind hacker for comparison the results should be similar, except that the overall efficiency with the hacker should be greater due to the bigger prop. You may need more pitch to get the same pitch speed as the kontronic on a smaller diameter prop...

I went through a similar thing when I was looking for a f5b motor, and I decided to go for the hacker eventually. However, I think the Fun500-27 costs less and this is also an important factor!

Regards

Kyri
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Old Oct 12, 2002, 09:03 AM
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Kyri;
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I was erroneously thinking that since on sim program I can run both setups with same prop and cell counts that they were more comparable than they really were. The KV calc including the gearbox is a new concept to me, and helps a lot. Thanks for the help! Brad
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Old Oct 12, 2002, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kyri
The B50 has a 5mm shaft on the motor. The Kontronic has a 3.2mm shaft.
You sure? The FUN500/600 series do in fact have a 5mm steel shaft, atleast my 500-21 and 600-15 do.

Regarding calcs they also try to take into account the efficiency of the prop and different airspeeds (dynamic efficiency) so that can throw some numbers out too.

If you take the same input power through the same prop on either motors I doubt you'll see any difference. The Hacker can however be driving a bigger prop (at a lower rpm) and have an edge in total system efficiency. Wether this is desirabel or not depends on the model and flightstyle. Easy isnt it

Happy flying!
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Old Oct 12, 2002, 11:19 AM
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Haldor,

I don't own a Fun500 and I have not seen one, but in a conversation with Mike Franz once I was told that the gearboxes for Fun 500 are for a 3.2mm pinion. Maybe I misheard him or he was talking about the Fun480? Anyway, I am pleased to hear that the Fun500 has a 5mm shaft because I may get a 500-27 for my HW609 on 14 cells

I agree that the hacker and Kontronik will have similar efficiencies at similar input watts. I think the Fun500 is a bit lighter and shorter than the B50S? At least the FUn480 and B40-6L that I have, are very similar but the Fun motor is a little shorter and lighter.


Brad,

What are you planning to do with the motor?

Regards

Kyri
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Old Oct 12, 2002, 11:22 AM
jjc
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fun500-27

My Kontronik 500-27 has a 4.3:1 gear box, and a 6mm output shaft. They must offer many different varieties. John
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Old Oct 12, 2002, 12:34 PM
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Infact the difference is only in the gearbox.

Hacker and Kontronic use different gearboxes for different gear ratio's, this may be wy the shaft size is different.

I know for a fact that the Hacker 6,7/1 gearbox is of completely different design then the lower ratio gearboxes.

As to efficiency numbers on these motors. If you compare the same sise motors with the same kV's then they will perform almost identicaly and have the same high efficiency.

However it seems that the max efficiency point of the Kontronic FUN motors is at a slightly higher amp level then with the Hacker motors.

This is only a very small difference and i think you should look more at other factors such as availeble gear ratio's, PRICE and availebilaty of these motors al together.

Have FUN
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Old Oct 12, 2002, 03:15 PM
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Kyri;
The FUN 500-27 will probably end up in an Accord 63 on 16 cells for hovercraft-style fun flying. I want to learn to hang a plane on the prop. I think that this setup using my 3SL-70 controller, an "Ultimate BEC" circuit to save weight, and a 14x10 APC-E will accomplish that. Maybe a gyro, too? Whaddayathink? Brad
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Old Oct 13, 2002, 07:43 AM
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Ok - some clarification is in order:

The motorshaft on the FUN500/600's are 5mm, the GB output shaft is different, mostly 6mm.
Same goes for the Hacker B50's
Yes, the FUN500 is lighter (same diam. but shorter) than the B50S. 11/2years ago when Kontronik had their BL series (now replaced with the FUN's) those motors where to the eye identical, same size,length,weight and external motorwire layout. I think they (Kontronik & Hacker) used the magents from the same source but built their own motors. Since then Kontronik updated their motor/ESC line and have sizewise an edge on the Hackers. Any efficiencydifference is small though, only a dyno plot could tell the whole truth there. I dont think you'll go wrong with either K or H as long as the system is matched to the plane.

Here is a pic showing the internal difference between the old Kontronik BL motor and the current FUN.
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Old Oct 13, 2002, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kyri
I don't own a Fun500 and I have not seen one, but in a conversation with Mike Franz once I was told that the gearboxes for Fun 500 are for a 3.2mm pinion. Maybe I misheard him or he was talking about the Fun480? Anyway, I am pleased to hear that the Fun500 has a 5mm shaft because I may get a 500-27 for my HW609 on 14 cells
Just checked the Kontronik website and the shaftsize is uniform on the 500/600's, all 5mm. It must have been the 400/480's Mike talked about. BTW I'm running a FUN500-21 in both a HW609 fan and a Schubi, 15CP1700's and 50A on the HW609 and 14x3000HV's/48A in the Schubi. Only the Schubi have flown though. Great motors Think they'll handle even more
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Old Oct 15, 2002, 02:12 AM
sal
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The Kontronik Motor that would be most like the Hacker B50 9S with a KV of 4100 would be the Fun 500-42 which has a Kv of 4200. The efficiencies would be very very close as is the tourque curves. I would not make much of the differences in MotoCalc or E-calc because they are using meadurement given by different sourses using different equipment and conditions. The small differences are attributable to these factors.

BTW..B50 S is the same size as the fun 500 series and the B50 L is the same size as the Fun 600 series.

The Fun 400 is shorter than the B40S, the Fun 480 is the same size as the B40S with same output power of the B40L
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Old Oct 17, 2002, 12:29 PM
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Re: Hacker B50 vs. Kontronik FUN 500?

Quote:
Originally posted by Va Beach Flyer
... the Kontronik will give as much as 25% longer run time and almost the same thrust as the Hacker! ...
Almost certainly either the program is wrong, or the input data was incorrect. The Hacker B40 and B50 are generally claimed to be more efficient (according to every comparison I have ever seen) at full throttle, but by just a few percent.

We have also done quite a few in-flight comparisons on edf's, and the Hacker B40 or B50 equipped edf models systematically fly longer - at the same power levels- , supporting the measurements of better efficiencies of the Hackers. The very high efficency of these motors is clearly visible in flight. Btw I have both & don't sell either one ...

I have used for many months now the Hacker B40-8L at power levels of up to 720 Watts & the Hacker B50 12S & 18S at power levels approaching 950 Watts, all in edf's with good cooling and relatively short flights. A friend uses four Hacker B40-11S in edf's at power levels around 600 Watts, very solid motors worth every penny.
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Last edited by Herb; Oct 17, 2002 at 07:37 PM.
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Old Oct 19, 2002, 12:10 AM
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Herb;
The program and motor constants I used were the ones on line at www.flydma.com using the "P-Calc" program there. I don't see how the data is wrong, unless published manufacturers specs are exaggerated. Maybe? Thanks. Brad
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