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Old Aug 18, 2014, 03:45 AM
13149876
Airman87's Avatar
Sweden, Dalarna County, Sälen
Joined Apr 2007
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CL diagram of F3F Run wanted

Hello
Im in search for a CL diagram of an F3F Run with a modern 3m ship. This is research for this winters 3m F3F mouldie project.
Anyone made one of these or could anyone point me in the direction of a complete telemetry system with al parameters needed to calulate that CL im flying at.
Any help in the right direction are very appreciated.

If you are in the buissnes and dont want to share this kind of info on a open forum im willing to pay money for it. Please contact me at kalle.strom@live.com if thats the case.

//Kalle
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Old Aug 18, 2014, 05:24 AM
dare to thermal
Mannheim, Germany
Joined May 2004
592 Posts
May be this is intersting for you:
http://scherrer.pagesperso-orange.fr...el%20flies.pdf

main page: http://scherrer.pagesperso-orange.fr...blication.html

Bernd
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Old Aug 18, 2014, 05:29 AM
dare to thermal
Mannheim, Germany
Joined May 2004
592 Posts
Btw: do you know the sm-gps2 from Stefan Merz? It has acceleration sensors and gps included and you can combine it with the unilog and a speed sensor.
http://www.sm-modellbau.de

Bernd
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Old Aug 18, 2014, 12:29 PM
13149876
Airman87's Avatar
Sweden, Dalarna County, Sälen
Joined Apr 2007
167 Posts
Hello Bernd and thanks for taking time to reply.

I am very familiar with that article and i have read it many times.
The problem is that its only give a hint of what Cl you are flying at typical day at the slope with 2planes thats not really familiar to a f3f ship. So i do imagon that the slope flights made on whose recorded flights differs quite a bit from a full blown f3f run of today with a modern 3m full carbon ship.
Neither the less. The results from the "Voltij and the "Jade" are very familar so i might end up with same results. But! It doesnt give me satisfying results to take the time and money to design my wery own F3F ship from.

But to the posetive part of the article is that it was some time ago i did read it. And i have completley forgott that it says what system he uses to record everything with.
So i picked together a kit from HobbyKing with the stuff needed to record a flight for about 150$ witch i found resonable for the task. That kit does not contains any gps or live recording witch is not needed for me.

//Kalle
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Old Aug 18, 2014, 12:57 PM
Phil.T-tailer
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Devon, UK
Joined Jun 2003
4,223 Posts
you will find what you need on the Pike Precision pages here:
http://www.f3j.com/precision.htm

scroll down for the Cl figures

if you can design something that comes close to one of these...

Phil.
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Old Aug 18, 2014, 01:50 PM
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Airman87's Avatar
Sweden, Dalarna County, Sälen
Joined Apr 2007
167 Posts
Thats what im after! Big thanks for sharing that link.
Very interesting reading thats for sure. Its funny to see that my "pre" design share 95% off their thoughts.
Thanks a lot!
//Kalle
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Old Aug 18, 2014, 01:51 PM
dare to thermal
Mannheim, Germany
Joined May 2004
592 Posts
Hi Kalle,

just found another article (in german) concerning the developement of the "highlander" F3F model. It´s a design with the help of Philip Kolb and Benjamin Rodax who also worked on the Pike:
http://www.jw-air.de/HIGHLANDER.htm

btw. so you will equip a model with speed and acceleration sensors?

Bernd
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Old Aug 18, 2014, 03:50 PM
13149876
Airman87's Avatar
Sweden, Dalarna County, Sälen
Joined Apr 2007
167 Posts
I did read some german back in school 10years ago. But i do have some troubble to read it. I will try to use google translate and go thrugh it. But grafs and pictures are very interesting though.

Even if i got some more info now i still would love to try to do this myself. This also because im missing out the speed range in the diffrent "phases" of the run. This will offcourse differs from run to run and diffrent wind speeds but still it would be interesting to see. And so will the g forces offcourse. So i think i go with the 150$ package.
Time to put my little 1,6m racer together now.
//Kalle
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Old Aug 19, 2014, 04:15 PM
Phil.T-tailer
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Devon, UK
Joined Jun 2003
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have a go at making a few assumptions yourself & work out speeds & loadings / Cl
the fast F3F guys are now flying at the FAI max wing loading - and/or 5kg auw limit

take a look at Mr.O's recent amazing 25 sec world record F3f runs with his Needle 100 & you'll probably conclude that the Cl in the turns is somewhat in excess of the Pike Precision design figures

Phil.
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Old Aug 19, 2014, 04:49 PM
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Airman87's Avatar
Sweden, Dalarna County, Sälen
Joined Apr 2007
167 Posts
Oh, so he is flying the needle 100 at that run as well? Only 100inch and x tail. Thats not the development direction in f3f right know. Very very very interesting...

Yes, samba models numbers are a bit hidden in the shadows. Cause im with you when it comes to that a CL max of 0.45 is they to low for those turns. But aerodynamics have suprised me before.
So im ordering the equipment. Want be able to sleep if i dont find out the real numbers
And im going to help a friend to develop a Q500 pylon wing this winter as well so it want hurt to know the numbers of that run either.
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Old Aug 20, 2014, 01:33 AM
dare to thermal
Mannheim, Germany
Joined May 2004
592 Posts
Some information by Martin Hepperle concering CL in pylon races: http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/...simulation.htm
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Old Aug 20, 2014, 11:15 AM
13149876
Airman87's Avatar
Sweden, Dalarna County, Sälen
Joined Apr 2007
167 Posts
Wow! Im getting bombarded with interesting reading here. Keep it coming!

About the CL. Interesting to see that even the f3d guys are only using now more than 0,6. Dont know about the development in f3d since-95 but maybe the cl numbers in f3f arent as high as you would think after al.
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Old Aug 20, 2014, 03:12 PM
13149876
Airman87's Avatar
Sweden, Dalarna County, Sälen
Joined Apr 2007
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I just put the complete seagull glide package in the shopping basket. So now i can look for myself. Thanks for all help and articles.

//Kalle
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Old Aug 22, 2014, 07:09 PM
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United States, CA, Mountain View
Joined Apr 2001
608 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman87 View Post
I just put the complete seagull glide package in the shopping basket. So now i can look for myself. Thanks for all help and articles.

//Kalle
Watch out, the seagull glide is not enough unless you add the optional G-force expander.
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Old Aug 22, 2014, 11:15 PM
13149876
Airman87's Avatar
Sweden, Dalarna County, Sälen
Joined Apr 2007
167 Posts
I got that one as well. Will see how it works.
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