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Old May 24, 2013, 11:43 PM
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High power very high RPM motor for supercharger.

Hey guys.

I am having a discussion about replacing the turbine section of a turbo charger with a high power high RPM motor for use on a car. I immediately thought of you guys.

The turbo will need to spin at over 50,000rpm, preferably much higher than this and will require several KW. Prob at least 5kw.

Are there any motors around that will satisfy these demands?

You may have seen scam electric superchargers which use a 0.005KW computer fan. Obviously this project actually strives to produce real boost pressure.

Thanks Dennis.
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Old May 25, 2013, 12:27 AM
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Don't bother. It's been thrown around quite a few times here. By the time you've got an electric motor driving a rotor fast enough to compress a useful quantity of air, you're putting such a strain on the car's electrical system that any benefits are far outweighed by the turbocharger's own energy consumption.

Think about it: You said yourself that you'll need maybe a 5kW motor (More? Less? Who knows?). If you ran it off the car's native electrical system, you'd be approaching the CCA rating of many auto batteries CONTINUOUSLY, simply trying to power your turbocharger. 5000W is more than 6.5 horsepower that has to get from the engine into the alternator and then through the electrical system into the compressor blades...
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Old May 25, 2013, 02:33 AM
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FWIW, C₄H₁₀, have a read of this - http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8197
It seems to work well enough.
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Old May 25, 2013, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C₄H₁₀ View Post
Don't bother. It's been thrown around quite a few times here. By the time you've got an electric motor driving a rotor fast enough to compress a useful quantity of air, you're putting such a strain on the car's electrical system that any benefits are far outweighed by the turbocharger's own energy consumption.

Think about it: You said yourself that you'll need maybe a 5kW motor (More? Less? Who knows?). If you ran it off the car's native electrical system, you'd be approaching the CCA rating of many auto batteries CONTINUOUSLY, simply trying to power your turbocharger. 5000W is more than 6.5 horsepower that has to get from the engine into the alternator and then through the electrical system into the compressor blades...
Thanks for the reply. That has been already been debated elsewhere and the answer is that it will work, and this idea does not break any laws of thermodynamics, as it may first appear. The extra power comes from COMBUSTION of the air with fuel, not just from decompression of the compressed air. The device would only be working at full power for maybe 2% of the time, so the alternator will have no probs keeping batteries topped up. The power to drive the device comes from the past, so it will NOT drag a 5KW load off the engine, unlike a normal supercharger which does drag the power required for compression from the crank in real time, yet it still obviously works. The alternator only needs to supply the AVERAGE power demand which will be much, much lower than the rated power of the electric motor. A dedicated lithium bank and special charging system may be required to run the motor. Another thing that you RC guys know a lot about!

I don't really want to have the debate again, see this thread. http://www.performanceforums.com/for...Electric-turbo Plus Bill has linked a version that has already been proven to work. My request of a 5000W motor at 50,000+ RPM may not be achievable. But I thought I may get some answers on what kind of motors are available. Less power will give some boost, so I await some replies on what sort of RPM and power we can get from these motors.

Cheers.
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Old May 25, 2013, 06:09 AM
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The Neu 15xx series will float your boat. Used in EDF a bit, similar speeds and powers.
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Old May 25, 2013, 11:44 AM
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If you want to get serious, don't ditch the car batteries for Lipo. I have yet to see a sailplane winch run reliably on Lipo batteries. The amp draw of an old-school V8 starter motor is pretty brutal, and a couple (or single LARGE) lead-acid battery should give better amp output than a comparable Lipo. Plus, there's less of a chance of a massive fire that cannot be extinguished.

On thing to consider might be running a pair of lead acid batteries in series to get 24+V to the turbo motor. Figuring out how to charge at 12V, and output 24V could get tricky, or you could get a "step-up" charging system, and avoid the issue.

You might need to look at a sensored motor, considering the loads you're talking about. A typical EDF or prop drive likely won't see the same type of dynamic loads this turbo motor might see. If you pump it all into a giant "log" style plenum, you might be able to alleviate those issues.
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Old May 25, 2013, 07:49 PM
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I guess with the sailplanes they use the smallest packs they can due to weight so they would be running at very high C rates. You could go bigger in a car. But yeah, if I could stay with AGM or something it would be much cheaper.

I checked out the NEU thanks for that! 26V and 60,000rpm but only 2.25kw, and 4.5kw peak. What sort of duty cycles are these peak rating usually good for?

http://www.neumotors.com/Site/1500_series.html

Need more RPM and more power
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Old May 25, 2013, 08:45 PM
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On the note of sailplane use, I was referring to winch launch gliders, not motored planes. The winches frequently use old-school Ford Long-shaft V8 starter motors and pB batteries to run the winches. Normally, the winches run wide open for just a few seconds at a time, not too unlike what you might be doing. Lipo batteries won't take the abuse the winches deliver, not for many cycles, anyway.

As far as motors go, take a peak at what some of the guys in the "High-Performance" threads are doing. I can't remember what specific discipline it is, but some of the guys are running near 8Kw, but only for a few seconds at a time. I think mainly because the planes tend to get really small, really fast.
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Old May 25, 2013, 09:01 PM
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Neu's motors can take a lot more than they're spec'd for. He also builds custom motors if you're keen.
He's here on RCG as "sneu" if you want to track him down.
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Old May 27, 2013, 06:25 PM
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It will be tricky to solve your equation as you will need a fairly large motor to cope with the heat from the power (most likely not ideal cooling conditions either)
This coupled to the very high rpm is where it gets challenging. Big motors don't want to rotate at 60k+ rpm. Somekind of gearing might be possible? Maybe something inline with how a Rotrex SC works?

I am sure it will be possible to build a well working system tho, just some stuff to overcome as it is fairly new ground.
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Old May 27, 2013, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisRB View Post
Need more RPM
So 60,000 isn't enough. What rpm do you need?

Quote:
and more power
No rating is specified for the Neu 1530, but it should be good for at least 5Kw peak. How much power do you need?

Quote:
What sort of duty cycles are these peak rating usually good for?
Depends on cooling and motor efficiency.

The Neu 1530-1D should get a bit over 90% efficiency from 2.2kW to 5kW at 26V, with heating losses of around 200W at 2.2kW to 450W at 5kW. Therefore, assuming that there is enough cooling for continuous operation at 2.2kW, the maximum duty cycle allowable at 5kW would be ~44%. Since you say that the device would only be working at full power for maybe 2% of the time, you should have no problem using the motor's peak power rating.

Quote:
a couple (or single LARGE) lead-acid battery should give better amp output than a comparable Lipo.
I doubt that. A typical lead-acid motor vehicle battery drops to under 10V during cranking, and has a much lower power/weight ratio than an equivalent Lipo. If the Lipos you saw running sailplane winches weren't up to it, I bet they were simply too small for the job.

Quote:
One thing to consider might be running a pair of lead acid batteries in series to get 24+V to the turbo motor.
A pair of normal 12V lead acid batteries in series won't give you 24V+ at 200A (more like 20V, but then you need to draw 250A, but then the voltage drops to 9V, and then...).

You will probably need more than 24V anyway, just to get the required rpm from a 1 turn motor.
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:05 PM
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Old May 28, 2013, 05:20 PM
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Adding more air will not make the engine more powerful in fact it will stop running after going through a short period of severe detonation due to the lean condition.
Genius.
You should be an engine tuner.
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Old May 28, 2013, 08:39 PM
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Adding more air will not make the engine more powerful in fact it will stop running after going through a short period of severe detonation due to the lean condition.
All intake air will go through a MAF. The computer will see more air and add more fuel... automatically. The only caveate to this is that you have to watch the max flow of the injectors and be careful not to exceed what they can flow.

/dry nitrous 101
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Old May 29, 2013, 06:31 AM
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