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Old Oct 01, 2012, 08:48 AM
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Gulf Breeze, FL
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Originally Posted by vtdiy View Post
... purchased the same Nieuport paper model ....
Looks excellent so far. Sorry about my top wing covering being wrongside up. Buried somewhere in this thread is my comment lamenting that I made a DUH boo boo, but didn't realize it until I had already sent "the kit" to Pete.

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I stretched the printed tissue over a cardboard frame....
Sure hope you post some more detail pictures! Should be an excellent indoor flyer. I don't have the luxury of an indoor venue, so overbuild because I know I'll have an occasional "wind moment".

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... how you set the join angle on the top wing ... you didn't put dihedral in the top wing?
I always put a CF rod along the leading edge to strengthen the wing, give it some ding protection, and to have a nice rounded LE. In order to have one continuous rod along the sweep, I heated the center point of the rod with a soldering iron and carefully bent it to the right angle. You could further reinforce the bend with a small thin-ply sandwich. Pete has used a bent aluminum tube to join CF sections, so that will also work.

The top wing has no dihedral, that function being provided by the bottom wing, as in the real plane. Pete can tell you how much he uses, depending on whether or not ailerons are used (I assume yours will be RET?). I think he'll tell you that most of the time, ailerons are not needed to get good performance from these WWI crates

Thanks for your kind comments - glad someone found something to work with.

Gene K
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by vtdiy View Post
I wanted to pass along a tip of my own.
Thanks. I too burnish the trailing edges and wing tips -- I arrange the tissue so that it wraps around the leading edges, allowing trimming of the trailing edges.

Again, hope you post more pictures!

Gene K
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 03:47 PM
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Southern Vermont
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Well thank you both!

I think it will be RET only, though I did order some of that Teflon tubing and found some 24 ga. brass bead wire. But I don't have an aileron servo. I do have the Hobbyking submicro brick, which I'm going to try. Also their 8mm motor and gearbox.

Though I'm probably not going to do the ailerons this time, for next time I was also wondering if stainless steel fishing leader could be used as the aileron cable -- I have that in .011" which seems even thinner and lighter than the bead wire, yet stiffer. Also it is coated bronze color and pretty slick.

I tried two different glues for the fuselage joints (beveled and chalked per video) the first was HobbyKing thick foam glue. Didn't like it for this fine work very much. It balled up when I tried to spread it on an edge..

Then tried what is becoming my main glue for foam, Loctite Stik-N-Seal Indoor adhesive (Walmart $2.50) And it worked really well -- just the right consistency to wipe on, let dry a little, then assemble the parts -- it is a contact adhesive. It is great to be able to wash it off your hands -- water soluble, and a pleasant odor. The only thing to remember about it is the initial bond is pretty quick, but real strength requires time. Full strength overnight. So a part under tension should be immobilized for a while or it will pop apart a few minutes after you put it together. For most parts, I just hold it together by hand for a bit.

The spray glue isn't holding the tissue on my sliced insulation foam very strongly. I can move it a little if a wrinkle edvelops. Probably related to the foam itself. I'm using the same Loctite spray adhesive Gene is using. I might need to spray a second coat next time, or spray the tissue lightly as well as the foam. Still it is holding on well enough.

Guess I'll have to figure how to add a CF leading edge at this point -- I was hopeful that the biplane struts would stiffen up the plane enough. But it sounds like it is needed.

I'm showing the card stock frame I tape the tissue on before spraying outside with Krylon clear. I hate the smell of the Krylon. A laser printer would be better!!!

Also a picture of the fuselage being glued up.

Thanks so much again for this build tutorial!
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by vtdiy View Post
I do have the Hobbyking submicro brick, which I'm going to try. Also their 8mm motor and gearbox.
The brick I like, the motor and gearbox not so much! Noisy and loose among other things.

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wondering if stainless steel fishing leader could be used as the aileron cable
How flexible is it and how much friction in the Tefpon tube? Remember that you need to make a 90 degree bend in only a few inches.

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my main glue for foam, Loctite Stik-N-Seal Indoor adhesive (Walmart $2.50)
Its properties sound somewhat like my glue of choice, UHU Por.

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The spray glue isn't holding the tissue on my sliced insulation foam very strongly.
Sounds like you didn't use enough. And yes, do coat both the tissue and the foam. Suggest some experimentation to see what works for you. I spray from about 18 inches to a count of zero to nine, moving the can around constantly.

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Guess I'll have to figure how to add a CF leading edge at this point
It's not that hard and will pay BIG dividends.

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A laser printer would be better!!!
Amen!

Keep the pictures coming, please.

Gene K
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 09:57 PM
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Gene, I was looking up aileron servos on HK to use with the HK Super micro brick and saw that you had used the little hk orange servos. I have a few of those, and I think I'll change the connector on one to try it on the bench. I think it takes the 1 mm JST-SH female to get it to work with the brick.

Anyway, still planning on this first practice plane to do RET only.

I don't know how well the stainless leader would work with a sharp bend in the tubing because I don't have the tube yet -- just ordered. But will get back to you on it.

I have to drive to Keene, NH to get carbon fiber -- nearest LHS, so can't work on lower wing. Might have to switch to gear installation in the mean time..

BTW, is the CF in both wings? Or can I get away with it i the lower only? The upper is already wrapped, but I haven't done the lower yet, so I could put it under the tissue on that one. I'm guessing 2mm CF or do you use slightly smaller for the LE on 2mm foam?

I will put scale dihedral in the lower wing for RET -- looks generous..

I've never seen POR, but looked for it a long time. The Loctite Indoor Adhesive product seems to be an acrylic cement -- a little like acrylic latex caulk -- smells similar -- water cleanup. Probably quite different than POR which I'm guessing is strong solvent based. But they probably glue up the same way.

I'm sure my problem with gluing the skins on was due to not spraying the tissue as well as the foam. It sticks, but not very strong. But fine for my first learning build using your methods. I expected to have some small problems along the way -- nothing major so far! Already looking forward to future builds I can do with this method. Having fun!
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by vtdiy View Post
...saw that you had used the little hk orange servos.
The small 1.7g servos are excellent - quiet and strong!

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...is the CF in both wings? Or can I get away with it i the lower only?
I overbuild and put the CF LE on both upper and lower; however, I think it's more important to have it in the upper if you "want to get away" with only doing one. The lower wing one piece CF leading edge is more of a challenge because you'll have to build in both sweep and dihedral.

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I'm guessing 2mm CF or do you use slightly smaller for the LE on 2mm foam?
No, you don't need it that thick - 1.2mm is plenty, but it also depends on how stiff your selected foam is - I use 2mm Depron for the wings and score the LE to create a trough for the rod. The grain in Depron also helps.

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Already looking forward to future builds I can do with this method.
Pretty much allows any airframe you want! What scale/wingspan is your Nieuport?

Gene K

P.S. You may want to increase the rudder on some of these WWI builds - 15% is what Pete likes.
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 07:07 AM
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Vt,

I use .015"/.038mm 7 strand coated bead wire. It fits the teflon CA tubes perfect as there is little friction. These servos don't like much in the way of friction and will hang up esp if max throws are used. If the fishing lead is thin enough to slide with little friction that would be cool.

I don't think you need a 2mm CF rod in the LE a smaller diameter I think would be better. That said I agree with Gene it depends on your cut foam. It may not be as stiff as Depron so flex could be a problem. And yes what Gene said about the Depron grain is very important esp. when doing a fuselage where you need the most flex around curves usually.

I finally finished my Gene covered Black 6 Nieuport-11 by painting my pilot. Except for the fake real aileron push horns that go in the top wing dark slots. I will do that tonight. Here's a few pic's for some inspiration Gene did a fantastic covering job on all of the WWI birds we did as a team. I flew the Black 6 yesterday and it is such a joy to fly and see in the air.

Still working on my D.VIII Oberursel motor trying to keep up with Gene.

Good luck with yours and please post your build pic's.

Pete
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 07:21 AM
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Adamstown, MD
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I am just blown away by the talent here.

I saw a MD flag hanging in the gym... Where are you guys flying? I'd love to see these in person and maybe even fly with my 1919 White mono with you fokkers.
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 07:42 AM
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Pete, Glen, the Nieuport (and Fokker) look fantastic! Can't wait to show up at the gym in December with mine. Your pilot is amazing.

I will increase the rudder size 15% -- haven't built it yet, and also print the wheel covers with it enlarged so I can do the cone thing.

Okay I'll add 1.2mm CF to top and bottom wings. What I'll do for the top maybe is print out another wing and cut some LE patch strips to cover the CF. Surely a few Nieuports had patches on their wings. I might piece them to look more like patches. I think in the British antique trade they call a well done furniture repair that shows "an honest patch". Always liked that term!

My Nieuport WS is 14-1/2" -- I wanted to do what you two had done to make it easier to follow along the tutorial on this first plane.

I'll look for the braided bead wire in case the leader is too stiff. Also will give me a comparison.

I promise to post pix when I get some more done. Thanks for all your help.
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 07:46 AM
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BTW, here are a couple of planes I did last winter. This new one will be much lighter and better for indoor flying (I hope).

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...i#post22449853
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 08:11 AM
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BPotter,

We were flying on early Sunday mornings 8-11 and even later at the Montgomery Community College campus Falcon Hall. My understanding is we can still fly there but the time may be in the afternoon. We are working on access PM me, I'll see what I can find out it would be great if we could get more interest and more guys flying there to keep it open.

Vt,

Cool stuff you have. BTW my dad is in Sharon VT you anywhere near there?

Pete
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 08:53 AM
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Pete, I'm about 80 miles south of Sharon. If he's ever down toward Brattleboro, PM me.

My club flies Tues (water) and Sunday (field) s until it gets too cold for comfort (though I've been known to fly in snowstorms!) -- then in December to Spring, Sundays in a college gym in Putney, VT -- which is a little closer to Sharon.

Gym is small, Indoor season is about 50% free flight rubber power (which I also enjoy). Very little scratch built R/C indoors (hope to change that with the Nieuport, etc) -- mostly Vapors, micro ARFs, and occasional 3D.
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 09:18 AM
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print the wheel covers with it enlarged so I can do the cone thing.
Your plans already take that into account. Regarding wheels, I've recently found a treasure chest in a local Rubber & Gasket store - rubber O rings of all sizes for just pennies each. They make perfect tires when mounted on Depron/light ply, and they help to get some weight forward for balancing these short-nosed airplanes.

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I'll add 1.2mm CF to top and bottom wings.
Rather than starting all over, consider just gluing a flat CF strip to the bottom of the top wing and skip the bottom wing. Paint the CF first to match the tan, and it won't be very visible at all.

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... print out another wing and cut some LE patch strips to cover the CF.
What I do now is paint the CF white after I glue it on and blend it into the leading edge - that way after the tissue is applied there's no evidence of the rod.

I enjoyed your build log - thanks.

Gene K
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 09:20 AM
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I finally finished my ... Nieuport-11 ....
That's my favorite of all your builds!

Gene K
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Old Oct 04, 2012, 07:50 PM
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NP-11 Video

Pete asked me to post the following video he took using an older #3 808 keychain camera. He cleverly mounted the camera on pair of lens-less sun glasses, and it obviously worked very well.

The camera struggled a little with the significant shifts from bright sky to shaded trees, but it's very good overall, in my opinion. The camera model is now up to #16, being greatly improved (as shown in the dedicated RCG thread here: ).

Pete's Radio Control Ultra Micro Nieuport 11.mov (3 min 9 sec)


Nice job, Pete.

Gene K
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