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Old Sep 16, 2014, 08:41 PM
Altitude is my friend...
Depronicus's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Horne View Post
...how many cells in your battery packs?...If you have more than two your BEC would have at least 7 volts headroom and the CC BEC would be very unlikely to drop the output below 5 volts. You could even program the output voltage to be 6 volts...
Four-cell in all cases, with the CC BEC set for 6-volt output.

Puzzling, huh? What the heck is going on here?
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 11:23 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depronicus View Post
Four-cell in all cases, with the CC BEC set for 6-volt output.

Puzzling, huh? What the heck is going on here?
I'm at a loss to explain it as described. Please don't take this as an insult, but my money is on user error. The voltages to which it seems to be sensitive are not visible to the Guardian. Something else is going on.

By the way, what firmware are you using?

Is your CC bec wired to the pack output, or is it plugged in to a balance connector?
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Old Sep 17, 2014, 12:18 AM
Altitude is my friend...
Depronicus's Avatar
Southern California
Joined May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
...my money is on user error...

...what firmware are you using?

Is your CC bec wired to the pack output, or is it plugged in to a balance connector?
In my case, that's always a safe bet.

The latest: 1.24

The BEC is wired per below, to the pack output, plugged into the "gear" channel on the receiver.
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Old Sep 17, 2014, 01:58 AM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depronicus View Post
In my case, that's always a safe bet.

The latest: 1.24

The BEC is wired per below, to the pack output, plugged into the "gear" channel on the receiver.
With v1.24, HH can be turned on and off with the mode switch depending on your setup. How is your mode switch set up?

What is your transmitter? Are you using any mixes? Which channels are mode and gain?

Is there anything that you do or happens on its own late in the flight that might correspond to the HH switching off?

Can the failure be duplicated on the bench? By switching to a lower voltage battery, perhaps? Or by running the usual battery down to a low voltage, without changing anything else?
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Old Sep 17, 2014, 03:42 AM
ancora imparo
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Melbourne, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
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Absolutely. Spot on.

I think that is a point that cannot be made often enough. Choochoo has pointed out many times that if you have weird mechanics the Guardian can do weird things.

Just ensuring basics like 100% transmitter throws = 100% design control throws, and initial mechanical zero trim would get rid of a lot of the strange behaviour people have reported.

I suspect us older guys who had to do everything mechanically because there wasn't any other way to do it learned habits the smart young guys with transmitters that can turn themselves in knots and go back up their own aerial with the programming of 98 special functions, 54 logical switches, and 32 recursive Lua scripts don't think is important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
So, we are all in vehement agreement but I am still not communicating the point of making sure you plane's mechanical setup (i.e., throws and servo centering) is correct before flying it with or without a stabilizer.
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Old Sep 17, 2014, 10:03 AM
Altitude is my friend...
Depronicus's Avatar
Southern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
With v1.24, HH can be turned on and off with the mode switch depending on your setup. How is your mode switch set up?

What is your transmitter? Are you using any mixes? Which channels are mode and gain?

Is there anything that you do or happens on its own late in the flight that might correspond to the HH switching off?

Can the failure be duplicated on the bench? By switching to a lower voltage battery, perhaps? Or by running the usual battery down to a low voltage, without changing anything else?
I have a DX9, using switch "C": Zero is 2D (not HH), 1 is off, 2 is 3DHH. As I mentioned before, there's that funny little anomaly between the ET software and the transmitter, with the zero and 2 settings reversed. I have to set 2 as "2D stabilization" and zero as "3DHH" on the software in order to actually get the opposite on the transmitter's "C" switch.

I'm using tons of mixes, with switch "H" set to turn them on and off. The Guardian doesn't seem to notice whether they're on or not. It acts the same, either way.

On the receiver, mode is on channel 7, gain is on channel 8.

In flight, I'm constantly switching from "Off" to "3DHH". I really like the way I haven't had to change any previous settings on the planes in order to use the Guardian, allowing me to return to "normal" crazy 3D operation at the flick of a switch.

It might be possible that in all three instances when 3DHH was disabled, the CC BEC detected the low battery voltage and shut off the power to the motor. I know it happened once, but I suppose it could have happened in the other two instances just as I was landing, and I didn't realize it.

I haven't had time to do the bench test. I'll see if I can get to it tonight.
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Old Sep 17, 2014, 03:05 PM
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USA, OH, Hamilton
Joined Oct 2003
231 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj604 View Post

One of the really useful applications of the Guardian is for a new untrimmed model.

I would not hesitate to put a Guardian in a new model, line up the control surfaces by eye and set a decent safe nose down level attitude and set 2D.
If the maiden goes pear shaped the Guardian panic mode will give you an excellent chance of sorting it out before gravity gets its reward. I have seen several painstakingly constructed models that lasted a few minutes that would have survived their maiden with a Guardian aboard.


John
I echo the above... PERFECTLY STATED. Combining that with a prototype design with unverified throw rates, CG points, and the potential of being forced into hand-launch situations are exactly why I even bothered trying the G in the first place.

And for ALL those reasons, I'm very glad I did! I probably would have not even had enough success to keep trying. ie: all my initial problems were once I turned G OFF... which proves that the G was "doing its job".

The only footnotes to the above would be:
  • Be sure to have a way to turn down rates.... even if only Hi/Low
  • Suggest first maiden lauch to be in 3D HH mode, not 2D (obviously set 2D trim though)

So although I've had a few concerns, questions, and even "oops" in my learning process, I'm extremely happy with the Guardian unit and what it has enabled me to learn with my prototype.

Paul
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Old Sep 17, 2014, 09:53 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depronicus View Post
.... As I mentioned before, there's that funny little anomaly between the ET software and the transmitter, with the zero and 2 settings reversed. I have to set 2 as "2D stabilization" and zero as "3DHH" on the software in order to actually get the opposite on the transmitter's "C" switch....
As I mentioned before, the labels in the app are just for reference. There is no industry standard for switch labels and no matter what ET chose it wouldn't match every transmitter. If this labeling bothers you, just reverse the channel and it will match your DX9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Depronicus View Post
....I'm using tons of mixes, with switch "H" set to turn them on and off. The Guardian doesn't seem to notice whether they're on or not. It acts the same, either way.

On the receiver, mode is on channel 7, gain is on channel 8.

In flight, I'm constantly switching from "Off" to "3DHH". I really like the way I haven't had to change any previous settings on the planes in order to use the Guardian, allowing me to return to "normal" crazy 3D operation at the flick of a switch.

It might be possible that in all three instances when 3DHH was disabled, the CC BEC detected the low battery voltage and shut off the power to the motor. I know it happened once, but I suppose it could have happened in the other two instances just as I was landing, and I didn't realize it.

I haven't had time to do the bench test. I'll see if I can get to it tonight.
Your setup seems reasonable. I'm suspicious of all the mixes, especially if you set them up by copying an existing memory. You might check and see is any of them involve ch 7 or 8. I think the main chance of narrowing this down is if you can duplicate the problem on the bench.

I would try; Point the plane nose up and engage 3D HH. Lower the nose back down and ensure HH raised the elevator (using max gain might make this easier to see). Without touching anything else, throttle up at least partially and let the motor spin until the bec shuts it down at low voltage. (be very careful of restraints and prop safety) If you spot when the elevator drops to neutral, you will know when/if HH disengaged. This will go more quickly using a smaller and/or partially charged battery. This should show you if the problem is really triggered by falling voltage. Just be certain that once you start the test, don't touch the tx.
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Old Sep 17, 2014, 11:23 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depronicus View Post
....I'm using tons of mixes, with switch "H" set to turn them on and off. The Guardian doesn't seem to notice whether they're on or not. It acts the same, either way......
The more I think about this, the more I believe the problem is in your mixes. Consider:

Any offset to the elevator or ailerons can disable the HH. Such as a "landing" mode that applies up elevator to compensate for flaps or low speed.

Any mix from throttle or rudder to elevator or aileron can disable HH, where throttle or rudder alone would not. Such as a "knife edge" correction for cross coupling.

Consider further that this programming might not disengage HH immediately when the mix is activated but might only do so when a master surface is moved, such as applying rudder in knife edge or reducing throttle to land. And a little bit of change in the master might not be enough to disengage, it might only happen with a more drastic change.

Consider also that you might be tricked into thinking that the Guardian is working fine with your mixes. If you have mixes entered for cross coupling in knife edge, your mixes may disengage the HH but if the mix correctly compensates for the cross coupling you might not notice that HH disengaged. This may be OK with you but you are essentially flying in rate-mode with no HH in this situation.

If literally all your mixes are switched, this might be an easy problem to solve. Just re program your mix activation so the mixes are only active when the Guardian is off. To test the theory, you might try flying a flight without ever activating the mixes. Better yet, bind temporarily to a clean reset model memory and make only the entries necessary to fly, no mixes. If either of these solve the problem you know the problem is in your mixes.
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Old Yesterday, 03:27 AM
Altitude is my friend...
Depronicus's Avatar
Southern California
Joined May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
...Just re program your mix activation so the mixes are only active when the Guardian is off. To test the theory, you might try flying a flight without ever activating the mixes...
I think you're onto something with the mixes.

I'll try your idea of only having them active when the Guardian is off.

(I started the bench test, but had to stop it when I left the house tonight. To be continued tomorrow...)
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Old Yesterday, 05:50 AM
Mark
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United Kingdom, England, Gnosall
Joined Oct 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
The more I think about this, the more I believe the problem is in your mixes. Consider:

Any offset to the elevator or ailerons can disable the HH. Such as a "landing" mode that applies up elevator to compensate for flaps or low speed.

Any mix from throttle or rudder to elevator or aileron can disable HH, where throttle or rudder alone would not. Such as a "knife edge" correction for cross coupling.

Consider further that this programming might not disengage HH immediately when the mix is activated but might only do so when a master surface is moved, such as applying rudder in knife edge or reducing throttle to land. And a little bit of change in the master might not be enough to disengage, it might only happen with a more drastic change.

Consider also that you might be tricked into thinking that the Guardian is working fine with your mixes. If you have mixes entered for cross coupling in knife edge, your mixes may disengage the HH but if the mix correctly compensates for the cross coupling you might not notice that HH disengaged. This may be OK with you but you are essentially flying in rate-mode with no HH in this situation.

If literally all your mixes are switched, this might be an easy problem to solve. Just re program your mix activation so the mixes are only active when the Guardian is off. To test the theory, you might try flying a flight without ever activating the mixes. Better yet, bind temporarily to a clean reset model memory and make only the entries necessary to fly, no mixes. If either of these solve the problem you know the problem is in your mixes.
+1 One of the benefits of the G is that most mixes can be done away with. I'd start with a fresh new model on the Tx and work up from there.
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Old Yesterday, 11:35 AM
Altitude is my friend...
Depronicus's Avatar
Southern California
Joined May 2009
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Bench test is back in progress.

It took about thirty seconds to re-program the mix on/off config to the "C" switch on the DX9, which now does double duty with the Guardian. Mixes are initiated when the switch is set to "1", which is "off" for the Guardian. Mixes are off on "0" (2D) and "2" (3DHH). I tested and confirmed it.

(I really like the DX9. Like I've said, they got it right this time.)

EDIT:

Bench test completed. The CC BEC shut the motor off with voltages on the four cells showing 3.43 to 3.46.

3DHH mode is fully functional. I waved the plane around and the Guardian is behaving perfectly. 2D is also fine.

I had the mixes off when the batteries ran down, BTW.

Based on this, can we assume that your hunch about the mixes being the real problem is correct, Rick? I'll re-program the mix on/off config on the other two planes that have Guardians to the "C" switch as it now is on this one. Mixes will always be off when the Guardian is in either 2D or 3DHH mode.
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Old Yesterday, 12:20 PM
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Joined Apr 2011
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In 2D HH mode I set my max bank to 30 deg., but it banks 60 deg.
What can I do to make it bank at the angle I choose?
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Old Yesterday, 03:08 PM
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United States, NC, Raleigh
Joined Sep 2012
538 Posts
From the Guardian manual (emphasis mine):
Stabilization Pitch/Roll Angle: The maximum target Pitch/Roll angles that the Guardian will allow your model to assert. This will be approximate as stabilization gains can affect this behavior.
If your overall roll gain (roll pot plus master gain) isn't high enough then the model can roll more than the maximum target roll angle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clearprop88 View Post
In 2D HH mode I set my max bank to 30 deg., but it banks 60 deg.
What can I do to make it bank at the angle I choose?
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Old Yesterday, 03:53 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clearprop88 View Post
In 2D HH mode I set my max bank to 30 deg., but it banks 60 deg.
What can I do to make it bank at the angle I choose?
Another factor that will affect the bank is your combined tx travel and DR settings. If your travel range is set for 150%, for example, that would boost your max angle to about 45.
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