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Old Feb 06, 2013, 10:09 AM
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Sooo, I bought a used Plane ...

For the record, the transaction wasn't on RCgroups but through another RC website - BUT - the scenario could (and prolly has) play out here as well ... So what I am looking for is advice on what your MATURE thoughts are on how to proceed and who is entitled to what.

... I see a used 2m pattern plane - RTF - listed with a few pics and priced at lets say $800 shipped. I ask for more info and we talk on the phone .. we do the dance and we agree on $$550 + $50 towards the S+H, shipped FedEx ground.

I specifically asked if it would be packaged well enough to survive the trip - He said absolutely. He is part owner of a local hobby shop and the transaction is proccessed on my CC, He's going to ship Fri. Not getting any shipping info Fri, Sat I ask if it shipped. It didn't because he wasn't able to fit it into the box his new 2M pattern plane came in and he needs to make a box, it will ship Monday.

Monday afternoon after not hearing anything, I ask if it shipped - he's ready but it required ALOT to make the box capable of holding the plane and since the box is now oversized, he needs another $50 towards S&H ( he states its costing him well over $200 for the box, materials and the ride) - Ok, I can understand, but I specifically ask "IS IT GOING TO SURVIVE THE TRIP ? " ... Aboslutely

I paypal the additional $50

It ships - but UPS instead of FedEx

It arrives and it is damaged. The damage occured mostly because the box was constructed poorly and very susceptable to compression along its length.

The motor along with the mount is detached from the nose, We're talking almost a 2lb motor (Axi 5330/F3A). The battery tray is blown out (2x 5s 5000 packs were attached)and lying inside the fuse. its evident it was banging around in there unattached. The chin cowl is cracked in several places. The painted fiberglass fuse has many stress cracks in the paint and a few notible distortions. The inboard wing trailing edges on both wings are crunched 2" about 1/8" up. The leading edge of both removable horix. stabs have wammy's about the 1/4" wide. The Canopy has the paint totally cracking off of it. 3 of the 4 canopy mount holes in the fuse are blown out.

I immediately get in contact with the seller and he is very apologetic. He wants to know if I want a refund - If so I must package and return. I send him pictures.

Is it fixable ? yes, it will not be 100% as sold, but yes it can be fixed and flyable, but not what as it should have been.

I don't want to spend the time and money to ship it back, left with nothing hoping on his word for a refund - I have no reason to doubt his good intentions other than protecting myself.

He puts damage claim in to UPS for the $500 item price and says he will pay to have it fixed.

I spend more time and effort taking pics, communicating with UPS, etc and process the claim. He admits he should have packaged it much better (constructing a wooden crate is what I originally suggested). The box was constructed by connecting 3 large boxes end to end with simple packing tape around the outside of the overlapping seams/joints giving it little resistance to compression and this is in fact how it failed.

It appears UPS will or has paid the full $500 claim.

So, to date -
  • He has my $500 for the plane, my $100 towards shipping, and (lets assume) UPS's $500 damaged claim payment
.
  • I have a Damaged plane needing repair, that after repair will not be 100%


What all do you feel is fair compensation to me ?

Also, I will note that he expressed the damage claim will ultimately be paid by him due to increased shipping rates his account will now incur. I dont feel this has any bearing on me what so ever as if it was properly packaged (as I paid for) it should have never happened. I also spoke with the UPS guy in my work building and he said that will not happen unless he has a reoccuring history of damage claims.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 10:12 AM
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"He has my $500 for the plane, my $100 towards shipping, and UPS's $500 damaged claim payment " $1100 that sounds like a smart businessman!. He made even more then he was asking!. That's a smart seller!!!. I bet the seller figures you are even money on this transaction.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsworthy View Post
"He has my $500 for the plane, my $100 towards shipping, and UPS's $500 damaged claim payment " $1100 that sounds like a smart businessman!. He made even more then he was asking!. That's a smart seller!!!. I bet the seller figures you are even money on this transaction.
He has said that he is trying to contact people in the F3A community close to me to take over the necessary repairs. I know talk is cheap but for now let us base our discussion on his word being good.

- having never gone through this before, I find it intersting that the seller gets paid by shipping Co. when I am the one on the light side of the scale.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsworthy View Post
"He has my $500 for the plane, my $100 towards shipping, and UPS's $500 damaged claim payment " $1100 that sounds like a smart businessman!. He made even more then he was asking!. That's a smart seller!!!. I bet the seller figures you are even money on this transaction.
Why don't you go back to Facebook and troll with the other feeble minded individuals. I for one am getting tired of your posts that don't bring anything constructive to the situation.

Garrett
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Garrett1234567 View Post
Why don't you go back to Facebook and troll with the other feeble minded individuals. I for one am getting tired of your posts that don't bring anything constructive to the situation.

Garrett
You sir, need to look in a mirror then either contribute positively to my thread or evaporate

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Old Feb 06, 2013, 11:48 AM
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I apologize for using your thread to get my point across, my fault entirely. I love trader talk and have taken part in a lot of discussions and help buyers and sellers alike, I'm just tired of seeing goldy make post that have no relevance to the thread.

Once again, sorry and I hope the seller gets you your refund you rightly deserve.
Garrett
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 12:08 PM
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Just a point about packaging, for all you people shipping planes:

Save your toilet paper and paper towel tubes. Keep a baggie, and collect them. There is nothing better to add support to a box from the inside. Just cut them to length and glue them in the box around your item to provide support. A half dozen toilet paper tubes could quite easily have prevented this shipping damage.

I learned this from shipping guitars without cases. Works better than double boxing. It's not a complete solution however. Packing pillows and bubble wrap still come in handy, although loose materials like this would likely still damage a plane with enough compression.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 12:10 PM
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Hey Allen,
Just an FYI, Garrett is good people. He, like many of us are sick of a certain type of poster that brags about having a rich wife, always buys his stuff new because he can afford it, throws out RC items rather than sell/donate anything and rants endlessly about how stupid people are for buying pretty much anything used, especially lipos.

So as Garrett did, I too will apologize for interrupting your thread but I thought you should know why Garrett posted what he did.

I hope your deal works out and the seller does the right thing on cost of repairs or whatever compensation can be agreed upon.

Best of luck
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 12:33 PM
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Also, regarding what's "fair".

I don't believe in fair. I've never seen a deal where one or the other didn't come out ahead. So as a buyer, I'd expect to return the item and get a full refund. In returning the item, I'd eat the return shipping to be nice, but it's not to be expected. I just figure a broken plane would fit a smaller box.

As the seller, I'd expect exactly what he expects. I thought I was done with that plane, and want to be rid of it. So I'd offer to pay repairs and file my insurance claim. As a note - do NOT assume he's been paid. Getting your money from UPS is a long hard fight, and typically they don't pay. I've seen many friends eat the price of guitars because UPS wouldn't pay damage. If the packing was insufficient, as you say, then UPS looked at it and denied his claim. I believe the rule is that everything needs a secured 2" of clearance on all sides, or something of the sort.

As for what you should do - Do you want the plane? Or do you want your money back?

Regarding the repairs, it should be you looking for someone to do it. Hopefully you can see their work, and get to chat with them a bit. If he's just randomly contacting hobbyists via forum from states away, you have no clue what you're going to get.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Pilot in MO View Post
So as Garrett did, I too will apologize for interrupting your thread but I thought you should know why Garrett posted what he did.
Apologies accepted on both accounts - you can not fault me, in this instance, for seeing the pot calling the kettle every shade of black
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 12:57 PM
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Thank you for your reply -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arr0wHead View Post
Also, regarding what's "fair".

I don't believe in fair. I've never seen a deal where one or the other didn't come out ahead. So as a buyer, I'd expect to return the item and get a full refund. In returning the item, I'd eat the return shipping to be nice, but it's not to be expected. I just figure a broken plane would fit a smaller box.
So, I should ship back at my cost and he repays me my $500 ? So, I'm on the losing end being I paid $100 to ship to me, plus the ship back costs - and, more importantly he gets his $500 in paid damage claim (lets assume) PLUS the plane and its gear ? Sure sounds like Im on the short end of that stick ... even if he tells me just to ship back the gear (Axi F3A, Hacker HV85, 5x digital servo's, AR8000 ...etc. ).

Quote:
As for what you should do - Do you want the plane? Or do you want your money back?
If I could wind back the clock I would, but i cant. Because I cant there is an additional $500 (lets assume) that is to be in either my pocket or his. Mine would be spent on repairs and covering a product less than expected. His would be profit.

Quote:
Regarding the repairs, it should be you looking for someone to do it. Hopefully you can see their work, and get to chat with them a bit. If he's just randomly contacting hobbyists via forum from states away, you have no clue what you're going to get.
I will - he was simply offering to help find someone in the community who is accustomed to working on planes of this caliber with the expertise to perform said repairs. I also am contacting several people ...
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 01:01 PM
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Not knowing how long it's been since this whole mess started, i would be inclined to start a chargeback with my CC company. Even if it only gets his attention to get the lead out to get you refunded or repaired.

Usually, if UPS does a complete refund of the value, they will collect the damaged items. If they didn't, you can assume the he received at least partial compensation and that money is due to you...
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 01:05 PM
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Lets not forget, in the end, if no acceptable solution is found, you can file a complaint on your CC and get that back for good not received as advertised. If he got insurance money, he needs to be forthcoming and make the plane as it was when you bought it.

I would be inclined to have him pay for a suitable box and ship it back to him. But thats just me.
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