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Old Oct 10, 2012, 07:40 AM
High Dynamic Thrust
stoneenforcer's Avatar
United States, FL, Mt Dora
Joined Feb 2007
2,312 Posts
Discussion
New f15se

Time to remodel and upgrade your F15?

Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle (2 min 38 sec)



Reminds me of the HET flying brick, i had years ago.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 11:49 AM
Bypass Ratio = Infinity
scatsob's Avatar
United States, NC, Jacksonville
Joined Apr 2006
1,653 Posts
That is probably what they should have done from the beginning instead of the F-22 program. Apply RCS and add some thrust vectoring to the F-15 and call it a day. Then maybe they could have bought more than 270 airframes.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 12:26 PM
KingtechUSA
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Tampa FL
Joined Apr 2009
2,878 Posts
But that plane cant hold a candle to the F22 even with the upgrades.

Don't forget when the F22 was built this whole F15 debate came up. So they took one F22 out against 5 F15 eagles and the F22 shot them all down with ease. A raptor pilot even says its like clubbing baby seals......

While the F15 is a great aircraft the F22 is way ahead of it even with the updates to the eagle. The only thing that can beat the raptor is the Democrats......

Watch this video from 36:48
Battle Stations - FA-22 Raptor (44 min 23 sec)


They talk about the head on head combat with the F15s and single F22. The F22 is pretty much the I win Button.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 01:54 PM
DELTAS RULE
corsair nut's Avatar
tehachapi, CA
Joined Jan 2006
22,838 Posts
now if only the 22 was reliable enough to go to war. its been almost 22 years since the first flight, and still no combat action. has to be the worst record in US aviation.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 02:17 PM
Not Funny......
Mike Warren's Avatar
United States, CO, Redstone
Joined Dec 2010
921 Posts
F-22 = worlds most expensive ELINT gatherer
(and hypoxia training vehicle )
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 03:21 PM
KingtechUSA
gunradd's Avatar
Tampa FL
Joined Apr 2009
2,878 Posts
The hypoxia has been fixed.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 03:23 PM
Not Funny......
Mike Warren's Avatar
United States, CO, Redstone
Joined Dec 2010
921 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunradd View Post
The hypoxia has been fixed.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 04:26 PM
Build'em and Crash'em
Ken Lapointe's Avatar
Narragansett, RI
Joined Oct 2000
3,274 Posts
Or starve in the cockpit cause you cant get out
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 04:54 PM
High Dynamic Thrust
stoneenforcer's Avatar
United States, FL, Mt Dora
Joined Feb 2007
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....
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Last edited by stoneenforcer; Oct 10, 2012 at 05:52 PM.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 06:27 PM
DELTAS RULE
corsair nut's Avatar
tehachapi, CA
Joined Jan 2006
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only have one thing to add....usaf....shoulda bought the yf23. nuff said! problem solved
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 06:31 PM
Bypass Ratio = Infinity
scatsob's Avatar
United States, NC, Jacksonville
Joined Apr 2006
1,653 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunradd View Post
But that plane cant hold a candle to the F22 even with the upgrades.

Don't forget when the F22 was built this whole F15 debate came up. So they took one F22 out against 5 F15 eagles and the F22 shot them all down with ease. A raptor pilot even says its like clubbing baby seals......

While the F15 is a great aircraft the F22 is way ahead of it even with the updates to the eagle. The only thing that can beat the raptor is the Democrats......

Watch this video from 36:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Sh1...eature=related

They talk about the head on head combat with the F15s and single F22. The F22 is pretty much the I win Button.
No doubt the F-22 is a capable airfraft, I just dont see the justification in the cost. And the fact that it can shoot down a lot of F-15's is mostly electronics related, not aircraft performance capabilty.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 06:33 PM
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scatsob's Avatar
United States, NC, Jacksonville
Joined Apr 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corsair nut View Post
only have one thing to add....usaf....shoulda bought the yf23. nuff said! problem solved
Yeah....YF-23 FTW!!! Sexiest (jet) fighter that has ever been designed.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 06:33 PM
EDF Jet Jam 2015 , May 28-31
Kevin Cox's Avatar
St. Louis Intl, Missouri, United States
Joined Jan 1997
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I believe they were focusing on the export markets F-15SE. US won't sell them an F-22 and the F-35 could be delayed so Boeing offered the SE.



OK... the F-22 is impressive and its Red Flag scores are through the roof. But the first simulated kill of the F-22, in these types of exercises was done by an F/A-18G. The story gets a bit twisted after that. The Growler maneuvered into a position (AOA, speed, range..blah blah) that was against the training rules. I can provide a link that gives an F-22 pilots version of with happened....but I'm Top Gun kinda guy.

"You followed Commander Heatherly

below the hard deck after he lost sight of you. Why?

Sir, I had him in my sights.

He saw me move in for the kill.

He proceeded below the hard-deck.

We were below for just a few seconds.

I had the shot.

There was no danger, so I took it."
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 07:26 PM
Bypass Ratio = Infinity
scatsob's Avatar
United States, NC, Jacksonville
Joined Apr 2006
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Speaking of the F-18, did India buy them? When I was in school they were in the market and it looked promising. Didn't the F22 that got shot down have some problem? Like it was out of fuel or somrthing was was making a run for it?
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 08:29 PM
EDF Jet Jam 2015 , May 28-31
Kevin Cox's Avatar
St. Louis Intl, Missouri, United States
Joined Jan 1997
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India selected the Rafale. But they did get the Land Down Under sale

No, it wasn't a fuel issue.

Here is a post from "Dozer", an F-22 pilot, on the issue.

Quoting Dozer-- "The Hornet "snap" shot - good story. Happened here at Langley. It was a stock, combat configured F-22 flying a BFM (dogfighting) sortie against an airshow configured, i.e. squeeky clean, not combat configured or loaded, Super Hornet (not at all representative of how it performs with 8 pylons, an EA pod and 4-6 or missiles hanging off the rails and probably a fuel tank or two or their out of gas real quick...). It started from a 9000 foot line abreast 300 knot setup (which AF pilots never fly) where they turned into each other at the "fights on" call. It's not a scenario we fly because we never find ourselves in those parameters, we try to set up realistic parameters we expect to see in combat - otherwise the lessons learned aren't applicable and while it might be fun it's not a good use of scarce training time (I don't know if that's a setup the Navy flies or it might just have been a quick attempt to get a last engagement in if they were low on gas - I don't have that info). The Hornet pilot gave up everything he had to point at the Raptor and take a snap shot - it was NOT a tracking shot (stabilized and enough bullets to cause a kill), it was about 2 or 3 frames (many more required to cause a kill - OK - for you skeptics there's always the golden BB but let me finish first...). The AF pilot honored the training rules we're all supposed to abide by, they've been written in blood because pilots have been killed in these scenarios so our training rules look to prevent those scenarios by causing guys to quit manuevering for the shot to prevent a mid-air collision. With greater than a 135 aspect angle and inside of 9000 feet we're supposed to avoid pure or lead pursuit to avoid that head on collision, inside that range at our tactical speeds there's not enough time to react to prevent a collision once you realize it's going to happen. The Navy pilot completely blew off that rule, the AF pilot honored it, the Navy pilot pulled lead pursuit all the way into the high aspect (greater than the 135 degree gun shot rule) snap shot, the AF pilot lagged off to prevent the mid-air collision potential, the Navy pilot was still on the trigger inside the 1000 foot rule (we're supposed to avoid getting inside of 1000 feet from each other to also help prevent mid-air collisions), attempting to get the snap shot, he's inside the 1000 foot range with the trigger on, flies within about 200 feet of the Raptor (remember who's backed off to honor the training rules), and dang near kills himself and the Raptor pilot and causing what would have been one of the worst fighter to fighter disasters in recorded history. I've had that happen twice to me when I was flying the Eagle as a weapons officer (close enough to hear very loud engine noise and I figured I was dead both times, but God wasn't ready to take me yet), and both times I knocked off the fight, made the guy fly home, busted him on the ride and he had to explain to me and the boss why he was being stupid. That is the ONLY gun shot video I have ever heard of or seen from ANY Hornet engagement, ever. And it was a hugely B.S. and completely boneheaded act as you can see from the actual circumstances. In the real world - the Hornet never saw the Raptor and he was dead w/o ever knowing what hit him - that's the cold hard truth, like it or not - sorry if you're a Hornet fan but that's how all of our engagements with Hornets, Tomcats, Eagles, Vipers, etc. have gone. You would be amused if I had time to tell you how the hundreds of engagements went I've had with aircraft of all types, the biggest problem we have now is getting anyone to fly with us because they get no training, they never see us and they just die. Unless we promise to do some within visual range manuevering with them where we start and can see each other at the start, no one (Navy or AF) wants to fly vs. the Raptor anymore - that alone ought to tell you what the truth is."
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Last edited by Kevin Cox; Oct 10, 2012 at 08:55 PM.
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