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Old Oct 11, 2013, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandano View Post
Water is a surprisingly poor conductor if there's no substances dissolved in it. The molecules align to the electric field, but there's no electrons free to move about.
Why do you write this post?
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 08:46 AM
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Because testing for resistivity on water that has just condensed from steam is unlikely to give measurable results. At the end of the day the scheme that works best is to detect either the water and ice's mass or detect it optically. A third option would be to just detect the atmospheric conditions likely to cause icing in the first place, and turn on anti-icing measures pre-emptively.
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by stratocus View Post
I just want to add this feature Wich will allow the Plane flying in any adverse weather.

On hang glider, de icing could be a bit of a problem with weight due to battery no?

I did some test resistivity and capacity with ice as a dielectric, unfortunately I didn't get any probant results :-(
What did go wrong stratocus, because I did some measurements too?


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Old Oct 11, 2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandano View Post
Water is a surprisingly poor conductor if there's no substances dissolved in it. The molecules align to the electric field, but there's no electrons free to move about.
Brandano, thanks for this explanation, as you said, specially with rime ice, i observed no conductivity, and of course resistivity and/or dielectric didn't work.

I had already idea of photocoupler, but i think it might be tricky to detect clear ice.
As you said atmospheric condition could be good indication of icing, something like >90%humidity, and temperature btw +10 to-40°C should be enough?

Brandano, any other idea how to "easily" detect ice?
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 10:57 AM
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A action photograph. Hanna inspecting the medium -rainwater-, with in it the conductivity sensor, is really frozen.
Second photograph, a moment impression of the video, adjusting the detecting level of the electronics.
Third, a rainy day, collecting rainwater is easy.

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Old Oct 11, 2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Taurus Flyer View Post
A action photograph. Hanna inspecting the medium -rainwater-, with in it the conductivity sensor, is really frozen.
Nice pic Taurus Flyer!!
Actually i did tests with rime ice from the freezer, i get not indication on my probes no change, no conductivity at all, what result did you get with clear ice??
What is this red wire you put btw both probes?
Can you tell me more how did you run your test, it looks interesting!

I am on layover for one week cannot experiment anymore those days ...
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by stratocus View Post
Brandano, thanks for this explanation, as you said, specially with rime ice, i observed no conductivity, and of course resistivity and/or dielectric didn't work.

I had already idea of photocoupler, but i think it might be tricky to detect clear ice.
As you said atmospheric condition could be good indication of icing, something like >90%humidity, and temperature btw +10 to-40°C should be enough?

Brandano, any idea other idea how to "easily" detect ice?
Brandano will help you further!
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 12:54 PM
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piezo ice detection

RFID Project - Detection of ICE by RFID Sensor Tag (7 min 19 sec)
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 03:54 PM
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Clear ice has a refraction angle different than that of air, so it might be possible to detect the deviation of a focused ray, like that from a laser emitter from a laser mouse, for example.
Also, you can get a LOT of information going through patent applications:
https://www.google.com/patents/US5206806
The caveat is that if you plan to make a commercial product you can't claim not to have known of the patent, and if you don't have a licensing agreement it is wilful infringement rather than accidental infringement.
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 07:47 PM
Jim C Patrick
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So you are designing a 50 lb plane that is going to fly 1200 miles on a tank of gas. A drone. It won't be RC because there's no transmitter to reach out 600 miles —the halfway distance— on an RC channel; and there certainly can't be any return channel (video, telemetry, location) due to on-board power requirements. So FPV is out too. And now you want to detect ice formation because the plane will be flying in clouds. A cloud-flying drone.

Why detect something that won't be there? It would be a lot easier to spray on a coating of Hydrobead or NeverWet. No water means no ice. Plus this will be a lot cheaper (about $20 US) than any icing detection parts, wiring and logic. It will be a tiny fraction of the time, complexity, power, and cost of any actual de-icing system you try to put on a 3 meter plane.

With the time and money left over, you might even have enough for a down payment on a UAV Collision-Avoidance system.
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandano View Post
Clear ice has a refraction angle different than that of air, so it might be possible to detect the deviation of a focused ray, like that from a laser emitter from a laser mouse, for example.
Also, you can get a LOT of information going through patent applications:
https://www.google.com/patents/US5206806
The caveat is that if you plan to make a commercial product you can't claim not to have known of the patent, and if you don't have a licensing agreement it is wilful infringement rather than accidental infringement.
I just want to do it as a personal challenge.
I am aware of patent infrigememnt...
Knowing how much money they spent to develop optical fiber ice detection, with no doubt I will not reach that point....
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jcpatrick View Post
So you are designing a 50 lb plane that is going to fly 1200 miles on a tank of gas. A drone. It won't be RC because there's no transmitter to reach out 600 miles —the halfway distance— on an RC channel; and there certainly can't be any return channel (video, telemetry, location) due to on-board power requirements. So FPV is out too. And now you want to detect ice formation because the plane will be flying in clouds. A cloud-flying drone.

Why detect something that won't be there? It would be a lot easier to spray on a coating of Hydrobead or NeverWet. No water means no ice. Plus this will be a lot cheaper (about $20 US) than any icing detection parts, wiring and logic. It will be a tiny fraction of the time, complexity, power, and cost of any actual de-icing system you try to put on a 3 meter plane.

With the time and money left over, you might even have enough for a down payment on a UAV Collision-Avoidance system.
Thanks for reply and links.
Also I am well aware of air law, don't plan to attempt any illegal range performance, at least not in a straight line...
TCAS are 5000 USD, so far no need for spending such a money...
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 09:38 PM
Jim C Patrick
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Originally Posted by stratocus View Post
Thanks for reply and links.
Also I am well aware of air law, don't plan to attempt any illegal range performance, at least not in a straight line...
TCAS are 5000 USD, so far no need for spending such a money...
I was not addressing legality (another subject), just common risk. A plane going through the clouds is not radio controlled, it is flying blind. And a 50 lb machine with up to 6 gallons of gasoline is a serious threat to any other aircraft.

Many years ago when the first deep-sea remote-controlled bathyspheres were deployed, they developed a problem. Since they could stay down for long periods of time (compared to manned spheres) algae grew over the photo ports and a lot of time and film was wasted. Many solutions were tried to fix this —water jets, heated glass, electric currents, algaecides, etcetera— but none worked. Then the lab's janitor bolted a car windshield wiper onto the sphere; problem fixed.

My suggestion was to concentrate on realistic, simple, and reliable solutions rather than invest in complex and unnecessary accessories. And FWIW, safety and risk management is another basic operational criteria.
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Old Oct 12, 2013, 07:31 AM
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My suggestion was to concentrate on realistic, simple, and reliable solutions rather than invest in complex and unnecessary accessories. And FWIW, safety and risk management is another basic operational criteria.
I totally agree, I will keep it simple, I know too much complex plane require heavy maintenance.
First is to make it flies later on I will add those features as much as possible.
I have been looking for towing plane but they are heavy and wing airfoil are not really appropriate to what I like to do.
Then I came up with this project.
Maybe It looks like a bit ambitious, but my first target is to have fun!
It's also a bit of an adventure with my group of friends modellers...

Appreciate all your messages, always good to share ideas, opinions and point of views!
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