HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Mar 03, 2012, 09:17 PM
LSF V 79
Joined Jul 2002
259 Posts
...
superskeg is offline Find More Posts by superskeg
Last edited by superskeg; Oct 11, 2013 at 05:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Mar 03, 2012, 09:23 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
14,912 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryO View Post
Let's surface some valid reasons why electrics shouldn't be included.
Gary, this is just like the team protection deal. There are very strong opinions and reasons on both sides.

Ryan
rdwoebke is online now Find More Posts by rdwoebke
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 03, 2012, 09:43 PM
LSF V 79
Joined Jul 2002
259 Posts
...
superskeg is offline Find More Posts by superskeg
Last edited by superskeg; Oct 11, 2013 at 05:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 03, 2012, 09:45 PM
AMA7224 LSF1832
Leadchucker's Avatar
Joined Sep 2008
3,470 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by superskeg View Post
Because the tasks will be easier to complete with a motor glider.......
Leadchucker is offline Find More Posts by Leadchucker
RCG Plus Member
Old Mar 03, 2012, 10:27 PM
Registered User
Okanagan Falls. British columbia. Canada
Joined Nov 2006
366 Posts
Explanation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by superskeg View Post
Because the tasks will be easier to complete with a motor glider. It would be like baseball reducing the distance between the bases, subsequent records would have an asterisk. If motor gliders are integrated, subsequent LSF achievers will have an asterisk, it may not be written or spoken but it will be there.
Tasks will be easier????? Please explain
knormang is offline Find More Posts by knormang
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 03, 2012, 10:49 PM
LSF V 79
Joined Jul 2002
259 Posts
...
superskeg is offline Find More Posts by superskeg
Last edited by superskeg; Oct 11, 2013 at 05:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 03, 2012, 11:45 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
Miami Mike's Avatar
Miami Lakes, Florida, USA
Joined Mar 2003
8,485 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by superskeg View Post
If motor gliders are integrated, subsequent LSF achievers will have an asterisk, it may not be written or spoken but it will be there.
And those subsequent LSF achievers who choose to stick to today's rules and complete all their tasks with pure sailplanes will also be tagged with that same asterisk, even though they don't deserve it.
Miami Mike is offline Find More Posts by Miami Mike
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 03, 2012, 11:47 PM
Registered User
Jim Deck's Avatar
Valparaiso, IN
Joined Apr 2005
740 Posts
Why the LSF/Ales bit started

I apologize in advance if the reasons for bringing this issue before the LSF membership weren't clear. Here is a "Reader's Digest" version:
  • Incoming LSF Aspirants are on the decline.
  • The availability of flying sites than can support "stringed" launches is declining.
  • ALES offers "winch in the nose " launches from a greater variety of sites.
  • However, The LSF Board is hamstrung from adding ALES by the existing LSF By-Laws.
  • With the query, the LSF Board seeks the members comments for guidance in how to proceed. The example of a previous Board's addition of HLG/DLG without a vote was cited as a possible solution.
  • A period of one month was allotted for these comments - thanks to those who have contributed.

One last thought for those clamoring for a separate E-SAP: Partisanship has severely damaged our government. I, for one, would not like to see it damage our hobby.
Respectfully submitted for your consideration,
Jim Deck LSF President
Jim Deck is offline Find More Posts by Jim Deck
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 03, 2012, 11:53 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
Miami Mike's Avatar
Miami Lakes, Florida, USA
Joined Mar 2003
8,485 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Deck View Post
One last thought for those clamoring for a separate E-SAP: Partisanship has severely damaged our government. I, for one, would not like to see it damage our hobby.
Well then you should be firmly in favor of keeping the electric-powered gliders in a separate class. If you try to combine them together then you'll get a situation similar to the political one that you're using as a metaphor. We would have two factions fighting each other for controlling power rather than two separate groups that have no conflict with each other.
Miami Mike is offline Find More Posts by Miami Mike
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 04, 2012, 12:09 AM
launch low, fly high
New Zealand, Hawke's Bay, Havelock North
Joined Dec 2004
1,837 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by superskeg View Post
This is how I answered the same question 3 years ago:

For 40 years thermal and xc tasks required finding a winchable site
and then the time and effort setting up and tearing down and feeling
the thermal of the day go by while untangling the towline along with
acquiring and hauling a winch and battery around. Using a motor glider
is hugely easier.

I have no argument that e-motor gliders are an advancement in model airplane technology, that's the problem.
Technology tends to march on. In 1970, who could have foreseen monofilament nylon winchline with 150+ lb of line tension? At the time, they flew balsa planes with "really strong" little spruce spars on 6V winches or wimpy hi-starts that could take well over 30 sec to get a launch (my current hi-start usually has ~2 sec launch times). Should the composite aircraft with high powered winches be outlawed as they are not what was used "back in the day" when the rules were first formalized?

How about computer radios? The early LSF Level V pilots had no access to fancy program capabilities that almost all current sailplane pilots take for granted now. Should the users of computer mixing radios get an asterisk next to their level V rating?

This is a slippery slope, with a lot of valid opinions, along with some rather "pointed" commentary. We all have good opinions on the subject. That some may have differing opinion does not not mean that their opinion is necessarily wrong, just that they are weighting with a different viewpoint.

I am quite happy that Jim Deck is bringing this up for discussion. There are valid arguments on both sides of the discussion. I'd be a bit happier if the "attack" style discourse goes away though.
Joe W is offline Find More Posts by Joe W
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 04, 2012, 12:47 AM
Good for what ALES you
awilmunder's Avatar
United States, CA, Novato
Joined Jan 2009
447 Posts
As ALES continues to develop, it is not surprising to see a range of reactions from the soaring community. I was an early snowboarder, and the reaction from some skiers was that we didn't belong on their slopes at all. Fortunately, over time, this perception has faded.

I did want to compare the difficulty of the existing LSF SAP for TD and ALES aircraft and also make a few comments about how ALES could be integrated.

The first area are the Thermal Duration tasks. LSF allows a pilot to launch to 300 meters. ALES only allows 200 meters. LSF allows tows of up to 60 seconds while ALES launches are limited to 30 seconds. TD planes leave their batteries and winches on the ground, while ALES planes must carry their motors, batteries, and props aloft. On the subject of propellers, for ALES, these fold, but still create significant drag. I think it is easy to argue that a TD plane has a distinct advantage when working on the LSF TD tasks.

For Precision Spot Landings, TD planes can use skegs to stop their plane or dork to hit a target. ALES specifically prohibits the use of any device intended to arrest the plane during landings, and dorks, while not prohibited, are typically avoided since they are rough on your props, spinners, motors, and firewalls. Again, advantage TD.

Both Goal and Return and Slope Duration Flights allow the use of a winch for launches, so the same disadvantages for an ALES plane apply here as well.

If there is concern that ALES contests are not as difficult, today we had 17 pilots flying 5 rounds and the top 6 all scored above 5000 points. These scores will only continue to climb over time so I don’t think this should be an issue.

One aspect of the SAP that would work perfectly with ALES is how Slope flights can be replaced with TD flights up until Level V at which point you must fly both. I decided to fly both TD and slope as I work on my requirements. Others can chose to only fly TD, but all Level V pilots must be proficient at finding both thermal lift and slope lift. Requiring winch use for the TD requirements at this level would insure that all Level V pilots share the same core proficiencies.
awilmunder is offline Find More Posts by awilmunder
Last edited by awilmunder; Mar 04, 2012 at 01:03 AM. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 04, 2012, 12:56 AM
Dave Register
okiesoar's Avatar
Bartlesville, OK
Joined Jul 2004
908 Posts
OK, I gotta step in here. I've been LSF for many years - not as accomplished as some as I've been stuck at III for a very long time. IV is done but for the Goal and Return. Maybe someday.

I've also been one of the initiators of the ALES movement and have traveled around this country to support the event more than anyone else during the last 3 years. The awards earned in those travels have been gratifying but the 'AHA' moments I see in the faces of new competitors at this event are worth more than any trophy. It IS revitalizing RC soaring and someday I expect string launch events to be the minor player in soaring competition.

So I applaud the LSF board for opening this dialog and I fully support the use of 'winch-in-the-nose' as a means of launching a sailplane for LSF achievements. If the bylaws require approval of the existing IVs and Vs to make it official, I encourage them to do so. Whichever way it works out, the effort to open the program to e-launch (with the usual altitude and no re-light conditions) is commendable.

If the electric launch soaring community can support a program specifically tuned to the other capabilties of these ships, then I encourage that group to do so as well. Don has suggested a number of options which would build on the special interests of e-flight. I do not see those efforts as conflicting with the LSF proposal.

During my 40+ years of soaring competition, ALES to me is simply another means of getting in the air. It's also the ultimate man on man event - this coming from one of the guys that flew the earliest MOM events in SoCal many years back.

For those that may feel e-launch planes are somehow different from pure soaring ships, I encourage you to take some of the winning e-launch planes for a spin. They are pure soaring machines that just happen to have a folding prop in the nose. Once that prop stops spinning, it is every bit as hard to read the air, sniff out the thermals, make the times, coordinate the turns and hit the landings as with a 'pure' soaring machine. Tougher, actually, as the $$$ in the pointy end really requires that you learn how to land without a serious dork. Or find a sponsor with some rather deep pockets.

As a late comer to e-soaring and a long time 'pure' soaring guy, I applaud the LSF boards integrity for opening the discussion. I support the incorporation of e-launch as an approriate method of accomplishing the LSF program goals. At the same time I also support tangible progress by other groups that would like to initiate accomplishment programs of their own that would play to the special capabilities of e-powered flight.

Up to this point, LSF is the only group that is stepping up to the plate to try and incorporate ALES technology into the existing framework without significantly changing a program that has brought great satisfaction to many pilots.

I don't think it's fair to ask LSF (all of us, actually) to overhaul a successful soaring accomplishments program by introducing new tasks that REALLY would put an asterisk on 'old' and 'new' accomplishment levels.

As Larry and Don have suggested, some other organization should set out a new set of accomplishments IF the e-power community really wants a set of challenges to stretch the capability of e-power. It's time for folks who support such a new program to get serious about setting it up and not compromise the existing LSF effort. There have been numerous proposals floated already. What it needs is a small working group to take the next step and see if some of that will fly. That's how ALES in the US got started and, I imagine, how LSF got going so many years ago as well.

- Dave Register
okiesoar is offline Find More Posts by okiesoar
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 04, 2012, 02:39 AM
Registered User
bg5000's Avatar
Madera, CA
Joined Jan 2009
21 Posts
Joe,
BIG +1

We had a similar discussion at our field today when a clubmate maidened a beautiful scratch built BOT. I'm new to the sport, but as I understand it that model was one of the best fliers at the time it was introduced. The one I saw today flew well but let's be honest, the latest and greatest 4 meter red moldies flight characteristics are unquestionably superior.

I think some of the concerns pointed out by Mr. Deck are valid. Our flying site was closed for the last 3 months due to storm damage. During the closure the soaring options were dlg or ales at the local school, drive an hour each way to the neighboring club field or not fly. If there's not a place near you that can support winch lanes then ales is a great option. Ales also seems to be an economical way to get people into the sport. Weather or not any of that is the concern of the LSF needs to be determined.

Fwiw most of the LSF members I know are great people that have gone out of their way to help me progress, so much so that I sent in my application earlier this year and completed my level 1 tasks today. I've been pretty excited about becoming a member but I have to say that some of the posts made in the last few days tempered that a bit. There are potential members on these forums, if they see this discourse devolve into something that resembles the daily operations of Congress than all involved may wind up with a similar approval rating.

Personally I don't see the harm in adding ales, that red moldie will fly circles around my radian pro even if I get "a better launch" but I'm willing to admit that I haven't been around long enough to be an expert and some of the points against it make sense too. neither flavor of soaring is going to disappear anytime soon and I plan on participating in them both. At the end of the day its the unpowered flight that I enjoy, I don't care how I initially started my search for my next thermal.

Brian Glover
LSF aspirant (until the mail reaches muncie)
bg5000 is offline Find More Posts by bg5000
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 04, 2012, 04:26 AM
Suspended Account
Russian Federation, Sakha, Yakutsk
Joined May 2006
2,978 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Hayes View Post
Dear Jim Deck,

Well, you really started a hassle with this extraordinary approach to guiding LSF into a new phase of pilot achievement recognition.

First, I have to ask you for clarity, are you trying to accomplish adding a winch on the nose type sailplane to the present SAP without regard to the LSF bylaws ?

Could you please change your approach and simply restart the energy that has already been expended on this issue and direct it to developing a new separate SAP program for electric powered sailplanes? Likely, a newly developed program would serve the electric pilots much better and be more inclusive. I would be one of the first to ask for an achievement form. I have been flying electric powered RC Sailplanes since the mid nineties. I think this would be the positive high road approach for LSF and it's future.

If the new program requires too much work load for an LSF officer to manage and I think that it will, then it is time to mature LSF by hiring a part time secretary or secretary service. I know the LSF treasury can handle the expense.

People are losing friends over this issue, hard feelings are being developed that may never subside. It is creating division among fellow LSF members. It definitely is not good for LSF's image. We are all brothers in this hobby of flying RC Sailplanes and your approach is tearing the brotherhood apart .

If you would have come out in the beginning with a positive approach to the issues involved in creating a separate SAP program for electrics ... but it is not too late to turn this issue around into a positive, constructive situation.

Please do respond Brother

Ray
Sky Bench ... Woodys Forever
http://www.skybench.com
Indeed. An 'E' SAP that incorporates the inherent capabilities of an ALES plane just might be the ticket. I forsee a 'Time to Climb' Task, limited Mah task (do 1 hour flight with only 300Mah) etc, etc.

I'd build up an ALES plane just to do the 'E' SAP. But make it fun, and unique.

Then, the LSF will get more members and both styles of soaring can co-exist within the same organization.
FrogChief is offline Find More Posts by FrogChief
Reply With Quote  (Disabled)
Old Mar 04, 2012, 08:50 AM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
14,912 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by awilmunder View Post
I think it is easy to argue that a TD plane has a distinct advantage when working on the LSF TD tasks.
.
Electric launch sailplanes can launch directly into any thermal. That pulls back some of the drag disadvantages.

Ryan
rdwoebke is online now Find More Posts by rdwoebke
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alert Attention lsf members Jim Deck Sailplane Talk 0 Mar 01, 2012 03:16 PM
Question Anyone interested in 1.4m Foam Hellcat Kits SWR246 Electric Warbirds 5 Feb 26, 2012 04:17 PM
Alert Attention lsf members Jim Deck Thermal 1 Nov 03, 2011 10:46 PM
Alert Attention LSF members Jim Deck Sailplane Talk 6 Nov 03, 2011 04:47 PM