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Old Jun 14, 2004, 08:49 AM
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Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
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FAQ
(Re)winding and building motors, sources, tips&tricks, checks&tests

Please don't ask general questions or help/assistance in this thread, just add your tips and tricks. I move information from posts to opening posts, that way the information is presented in a logical (work)order.Use translate.google.com for automatic online translation. All you have to do is enter a link there.
Start a new thread when you have questions or when you start a fresh motor/wind project , in order to keep this a lean and mean FAQ/tips/tricks/checks/tests/manuals thread. Once/twice a year I try to clean up this FAQ. But don't worry, I will ask you to start a new thread anyway.


1 - Tips, tricks, manuals, checks & tests
2 - Efficiency governs power/weight ratio
3 - Popular motor misconceptions



1 - Tips, tricks, manuals, checks & tests
  1. Never ever connect a brushless motor (whether in- our out-runner) directly to the battery, the motor will act as a massive short and will go up in smoke instantly! Brushless motors MUST be operated with a brushless controller!
  2. Use a DC power supply with a current limiter to protect the ESC during first test runs. Batteries are hardly current limited, to say the least and may fry up the ESC if the newly wound motor has a short in it. If you don't have a power supply, put a heavy a car lamp or a duty resistor between the battery and the ESC. Use few cells that are almost empty. Even empty cells can deliver a lot of current for a very short period of time. However, this period is long enough to ruin your ESC.
  3. LRK and CD-rom motors, different stator-magnetpole combinations in general, have different winding diagrams. Winding diagram depends on number of magnetpoles versus number of statorpoles.
  4. Manuals
    * Several excellent articles on building lrk and cd-rom motors, pictures, winding diagrams, by Brian Mulder a.k.a. 'Mr DIY' on E-zone:
    www.southernsoaringclub.org.za
    → Articles from Southeasters
    → Electric Motors - part 1 ... part 5
    * Motor construction articles by Christo v.d. Merwe (nice motor colours )
    www.bavaria-direct.co.za
    * Two motorwinding videos
    Keep in mind that CD-rom and (a)(d)lrk have different winding diagrams!!! Determined by #magnetpoles versus #statorpoles. * With instructive video
    flitetest.com/articles/re-wire-an-outrunner

    cd-rom = ABCABCABC(ABC) winding diagram
    * One hour instructional video (on DVD)
    www.strongrcmotors.com
    → instruction docs
    * Most, if not all, motor kit suppliers have manuals on their sites, very useful e.g.
    * Very good LRK and dLRK manuals (winding diagrams differ from cd-rom diagrams!)
    ClassicLRK winding tutorials
    pictures:
  5. Disassembly & old winding removal
    Outrunner Disassembly and Stripping - RCG
    • Disassembly
    • Removing the bearings
    • Removing the shaft
    • Removing the stator from the bearing tube
    • Stripping the windings
    Removing windings, in pictures, slightly bigger motor same method. Use heat/oven to soften the glue/epoxy/putty on/in the windings.
    Stripping old windings, part 1 & 2
    Stator removal tools
  6. Changing a shaft, grinding a flat on shaft &
    Changing bearings &
    Connector soldering videos
  7. Winding tricks, better/more copper packing
  8. Handy tools
  9. Personal homepages
  10. The metal ring/bell/magnetcarrier must be mild iron (piping steel).
    Carbon/aramide/kevlar, plastic, (most)stainless steel, copper, aluminium, glass, ceramics(with the exception of ferrites), wood, resin etc is not suited. These materials all behave like air to magnetism, they do not concentrate/capture the flux.
  11. Making a shaft
    Making and Replacing a Brushless Motor Shaft - RCG
    The tools needed are:
    • 3/8" or 1/4" drill motor
    • Dremel tool with #409 abrasive cutting disc and #402 arbor
    Grinding a flat on a shaft, video
  12. Windingdiagram-table and windingdiagram-generator
    www.bavaria-direct.co.za
    → Winding schemes
    → winding table and windingdiagram generator
  13. Determining (old) Kv
    of a manufactured/new/rewound/running motor.
    Several methods, notably the power drill method (most accurate, does not depend on controller settings and battery)
    www.bavaria-direct.co.za
    → Motor constants
  14. Calculating number of winds for desired new Kv
    For a given motor and phase termination (star/delta).

    Kv × number_winds = constant, or, in other words, Kv is inversely proportional to number of winds.
    This means that Kv goes up as number of winds go down and vice versa.

    Therefore, given two different number of winds on the same motor
    #winds_new × Kv_new = #winds_old × Kv_old
    or
    #winds_new = #winds_old × Kv_old / Kv_new
    where Kv_old is either from the factory wind or from a quick'n dirty thin wire 10 (20) testwind and generator-test (further down the road below).
    You only have to test-wind one of the three phases. For delta you use the measured voltage as is, for wye you multiply the voltage by √3.
    Note that parallel strands/winds count as one wind!
  15. Turn calculator/spreadsheet
    Includes the calculation of the surface of a slot in the stator, and the maximum number of turns that can be achieved as well as the resistance of the wire.
  16. Airgap, magnetwidth and -thickness, #magnets, stator- and rotor-diameter calculators
  17. Magnetwire
    • Don't use RadioShack or old/usedwire. The varnish insulation is not up to the job, easily damaged during winding.
    • Don't use cyano-acrylate type glues for glueing the coils. It can be aggressive on some types/makes of wire.
  18. Preventing shorts
    • Round/chamfer/bevel the stator corners a bit with a Dremel (carefully) or a fine file.
    • Round the top/end of the winding wire to prevent it from scratching the insulation of the previous winds (shorts). Dull the end of the wire, when sewing the last turns in to remove the burr/sharp edge that occured when cutting the wire.
    • Don't pull the wire too tight around the stator corners to prevent shorts
  19. Stator insulation/coating
  20. Wooden/balsa dowel I
    To keep winding wire away from center. More pictures and comments in threads:
  21. Wooden dowel II
    • Don't overstretch the wire
      click to enlarge

  22. 3rd Hand winding accessory - RCG
    Will let you pull on the larger strand(s) as the turns go on and get them on the arms better.
  23. It can be difficult to keep track of the number of winds during the winding process. Cut wires to equal lengths before doing the winding. If you're one winding of (off?), it will show. This method will not guarantee you get the correct number of windings but at least it will guarantee that all poles have the same number of windings.Take care with thin wires, they can stretch quite a bit.
  24. Winding tricks
    www.torquemax.de/Motoren/default.html
    The very first diy motor site, 2001!
  25. Cram as much copper as possible in the slots.
    This will give a lower motor resistance, less losses, lower temperature, a higher efficiency and the motor can handle more power. Use thick(er) wire or wind 2-3 wires in parallel.
    Higher efficiency does not only mean that the motor makes better use of the batteries' power, it also means the motor is able to handle more power before hitting its maximum temperature mark.
    An example:
    Say the motor has an efficiency of 70% and it can handle 50Watt input. That means it can get rid off 0.3*50=15Watt excess heat. Now, by cramming in thicker wire, efficiency increases to say 75% (I'm a bit optimistic here). The motor's ability to loose those 15Watts has not changed (by radiation, convection and conduction). This means the motor now can handle 60Watt before it hits the 15Watt (0.25*60Watt) losses mark. An efficiency increase of 5% gives an increase in the power to weight ratio of 20%. That's why efficiency plays such an important role, in any motor design: efficiency governs maximum power.
  26. Pushing/squeezing wires
    Use a toothpick or a broken prop. More in
    World's Best Rewinding Tool is Found!
  27. Coil 'squeezer'
    Modified pliers, for the die-hard (re)winder. More pictures/types
    www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=4616128#post4616128


  28. High power/current winding
    Improving high quality commercial motors e.g. Kontronik. Lots of copperwire in the slots. Instructive pictures, tips and tricks. Warning, these (re)winds may cause some frustration
  29. Checking for shorts during winding
    Connect a battery and buzzer in series. One lead connects to the stator (make sure there's contact with the stator, remove lacquer insulation!) the other lead goes to the beginning of the wire to be wound. Once a short occurs, you will hear it. You can also use an Ohm (resistance) meter for this purpose, some even have a buzzer.
  30. Measuring winding/phase resistance
    For calculations/calculators and checks. Too high/low phase resistances, or short, or open circuit, or differences between the phases indicate a problem.The phase resistance is very low (typical <0.1Ω), too low to measure accurately using a standard multimeter.
  31. Check for shorts between the phases BEFORE you hook them up in star or delta. Also check for shorts between each phase and the stator.
  32. You can try and use a battery or bank of capacitors to 'blow away' a short between a winding and a stator. Connect one lead to the stator and another to the shorted coil for a very short time but be careful!
  33. Removing magnet wire insulation
    Can be tricky, especially when using thin or litze/multistranded wire. Just heat the end of the wire with a soldering iron on an real aspirine tablet. Nasty/acrid fumes. Real aspirin, not paracetamol etc., because of acetylsalicylic acid. This does not work with all types of coating. Rinse with water to remove the acid.
    Aspirin, its not just for heart attacks - RCG
  34. The three phases/windings have a begin and end (duh ). This matters when hooking the three phases up in delta or wye. In delta connect end of phase to begin of other phase. In wye connect the three B's, or the three E's.
  35. Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets have a very strong magnetic field: They are also brittle (ceramics). Don’t let them ‘jump’ another, they may chip/break. Randy little buggers them is
    See also this magnet grade table.
    Seal chipped magnets with resin/glue/lacquer. Otherwise the moisture in the air will make them mushy and useless.
  36. Careful with metal filings/parts
    Use sticky tape or putty to remove it from magnets.
  37. Gluing and placing magnets
    Make sure magnets ar glued in alternatingly: NSNSNS ...Checking magnet placement: use a spare magnet to feel orientation of the magnets. Attract, repel, attract, repel ... You can use several magnets to create a larger surface magnetpole (cascading/tiling) e.g. NNNSSSNNNSSSNNNSSS is still a 6 magnetpole motor.
    Magneting instructions, tricks & picturesOptional
    Use an oven to cure and temper the epoxy. But be careful, set the oven to no more than 60°Celsius (140° Fahrenheit). Wait at least an hour for the temperature to stabilise. Ovens can have an initial temperature overshoot that will 'kill' neodymium magnets, irreversably, above 80°C/180°F (see magnet grade table).
  38. Don't let the bell slam home
    Use a wooden/plastic tool or an extra person to slide the bell&magnets over the stator, you won’t be able to hold it. It will slam home, this is bad for the magnets (any type of magnet) and for the ball-bearings.
  39. Generator test!!!
    Do this before hooking up the phases in star or delta.
    Spin the finished motor with a Dremel/powerdrill, the motor will act as a generator, inducing voltages in the coils. You still have three phase/wire ends, and three starts. Keep speed the same for all measurements or you will measure three different voltages anyway due to different voltages induced at different speeds.
    Now measure the voltages in all three phases (select AC voltage on your multi-meter, not DC), they should be the same. A diffence in voltages means coil(s) have been wound in wrong direction, or coils have different number of winds, or short between winds in a single coil.
    To determine which coil(s) have different number of winds or shorts you could measure the induced voltage per coil.
    If voltages are ok you can hook up the three phases in star or delta configuration and measure voltages between the three wires. Again, voltages should be the same. If not, starts and ends of phases have not been connected correctly. In delta, ends must connect to starts, in wye all ends or all starts must be connected.
    Drytesting brushless motors - WFF
  40. Use a DC power supply with a current limiter to protect the ESC during first test runs. Batteries are hardly current limited, to say the least and may fry up the ESC if the newly wound motor has a short in it. If you don't have a power supply, put a heavy a car lamp or a duty resistor between the battery and the ESC. Use few cells that are almost empty. Even empty cells can deliver a lot of current for a very short period of time. However, this period is long enough to ruin your ESC.
  41. Designing brushless motors and controllers
    scolton.blogspot.nl
    S.M. Thesis

2 - Efficiency governs power/weight ratio

Higher efficiency does not only mean that the motor makes better use of the batteries' power, it also means the motor is able to handle a higher power input before hitting its maximum temperature mark, i.e. a the power/weight ratio will be higher.

An example
Say the motor has an efficiency η = 0.700 and it can handle 500watt input. That means it can get rid off (1 - 0.7 ) × 500watt = 150watt excess heat. Now, by cramming in thicker wire (and/or using better stator-iron, segmented magnets), efficiency increases to 0.75. The motor's ability to loose those 150watt has not changed (by radiation, convection and conduction). This means the motor now can handle 600watt before it hits the 150watt (0.25 × 600watt) losses mark.
So, going from 70 to 75% efficiency gives an increase in power of 20%, factor 1.2. That's why efficiency plays such an important role, in any motor design: efficiency governs maximum power. The motors weight may have increased a bit due to more copper. All of this assuming the iron will not saturate magnetically.
A rather extreme example, just for calculation's sake/fun: going from 80% to 90% efficiency would increase the input power the motor can handle by a factor two (a.k.a. 2) Going from 90 to 95% efficiency would increase power again by factor 2 Dream on boy

General case
Going from efficiency ηold to efficiency ηnew would give an increase in maximum power motor can handle by factor N
N = (1 - ηold) / (1 - ηnew) = iold / inew

where i = inefficiency = 1 - η

Copper as thick as possible for ...
  • higher efficiency
  • more power
  • lower rpm drop under load
  • lower losses
  • lower temperature
  • at the cost of less cooling

3 - Popular motor misconceptions
  • A motor's Kv constant says nothing about ...
    • max.motor current
    • max. motor power
    • efficiency
    • rpm
    • quality
  • Motors have just one Kv, not e.g. 1100Kv. The motor Kv constant is physical quantity (length, weight, time, current, ...) measured/expressed in rpm/volt. It is not a physical unit (meter, kg, s, ampère, ... ).
    Therefore: Kv = 1100rpm/volt.
  • Motor/battery-current wants to go up with voltage squared and with Kv cubed! Way more than one would expect. (Ignoring bit of voltage sag due to the higher current).
Kv is about matching battery voltage and prop rpm.
An excellent Kv explanation in this quote ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by scirocco View Post
Kv, while an absolutely critical part of the system, is actually the item one should choose last.
  1. Decide your peak power requirement based on the weight of the model and how you want to fly it.
  2. Pick a preferred cell count (voltage) and pack capacity for how to deliver the power.
  3. Pick a prop that will a) fit on the model and b) fly the model how you want - often as big as will fit is a good choice, but if high speed is the goal, a smaller diameter higher pitch prop will be more appropriate.
  4. Look for a size class of motors that will handle the peak power - a very conservative guide is to allow 1 gram motor weight for every 3 watts peak power.
  5. Then, look for a motor in that weight range that has the Kv to achieve the power desired with the props you can use - a calculator such as Ecalc allows very quick trial and error zooming in on a decent choice. For a desired power and prop, you'd need higher Kv if using a 3 cell pack compared to a 4 cell pack. Or for a desired power and cell count, you'd need higher Kv if driving a smaller diameter high speed prop compared to a larger prop for a slow model.
The reason I suggest picking Kv last is that prop choices have bounds - the diameter that will physically fit and the minimum size that can absorb the power you want. OTOH, combinations of voltage and Kv are much less constrained - at least before you purchase the components.

So Kv is not a figure of merit, in that higher or lower is better, it is simply a motor characteristic that you exploit to make your power system do what you want, within the constraints you have, eg limited prop diameter if it's a pusher, or you already have a bunch of 3S packs and don't want to buy more, and so on.

Minor lay-out changes by RvS
Met vriendelijke groeten Ron
diy outrunner discussion group
int. E fly-in & diy outrunner meet, Nijmegen, the Netherlands
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Old Jun 14, 2004, 09:55 AM
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Speaking of Dremels

On some small cdroms i use small pieces of card between the magnets to stop them jumping together,when im happy with the placement i put a drop of Loctite Black max on each end of every magnet then chuck it in the Dremel hold it inside a toilet roll tube and spin it for a min' or 2,this forces the locktite to even out and mantain ballance as well as fill behind mags'. When cured trim any excess card flush with mag's with scapel then clean up with cotton bud lightly dipped in laquer thinner. It will surprise you how well this works, just check what is spun out inside the tube . Black max is good to 100c by the way. Good thread starter too Ron .cheers all.
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Old Jun 15, 2004, 12:31 PM
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Want a tight fit?

Try going through your collection of shafts with a micrometer and select the smallest diameter,carefully grind a radius on the end then with a dremel grinder grind across halfway up just past the radius,you will have what is known as a D bit,it acts like a cross between a drill and a reamer,of course you will have to drill a pilot hole first before using the D bit use slow speed and metho' as a coolant lubricator.and so long as you dont keep it spinning in the hole to long you should have a press fit.
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Old Jun 16, 2004, 09:56 AM
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Before fitting your bell

Use a black marker pen and blacken the inner face of the end bell and the face of each stator end allow to dry,then gently fit and rotate a couple of times,take apart and examine blackened areas for any signs of rubbing,its not unusual to have a group of stator ends rubbing just either file down or dremel sand the high spots but not the whole lot.if end bell rubs ,add small washers onto shaft till you have clearance.
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Old Jun 17, 2004, 10:18 PM
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Usefull small cdrom data

Drum sizes for different magnet configurations.
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Old Jun 20, 2004, 07:58 AM
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Want to extend your bell??

You can line the existing bell with old transformer ( i ) lamination iron..a guilloutine helps in cutting the strip width to the depth of bell required, cut longer than needed, hand roll around something wich is about 4 mm smaller to allow for spring back, then start trimming the ends off as they will have a flat on them,when you get close to the inner diameter of your bell,lay on a flat metal surface,take fine flat file one with a smooth edge to go down on the metal surface,squeeze the ring together so you file both ends together on the draw back stroke.by trying you can get a push fit and a perfect butt join.I use a little loc tite black max to glue them in and spin them with a drill in a toilet roll tube to even out and get rid of excess loc tite. I place the first magnet over the but join, when finished placing the magnets,i place a single drop on each end of magnet and use the same spin technique.when fitting stator i use the black marker to show witness to any rubbing and grind accordingly. so i might not be able to use max' thickness magnets but the lamination iron flux ring helps too.
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Old Jun 21, 2004, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron van Sommeren
@Rysium/Richard
Might be a good idea to put your double/triple stator torque/power/#wind/force explanation here too. Very instructive
Here you go:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KreAture
adding more iron like that increases the max wattage you can stuff into the motor before the iron is saturated with the magnetic flux created by the coils. Basically, it increases the max power-handling of the motor.
Not just straight so easy. It can increase the max torque achieved by the motor. The torqque will be square to to the stator lenght. Torque easy tranclates to magnetic force between stator and rotor.

In example in twice longer stator you can get twice more MF at the same saturation level but at the same time you can use longer magnets in the twice longer rotor. So the force will be 4 times stronger.
How it translates to power? At the same number of turns you can run twice more current before stator is saturated (this is the part of twice stonger MF from stator). So the power at the given voltage is just twice bigger than in single. But wait, the torque is 4 times stronger, so it must be lower rpm. Yes. Kv of that motor will be 2 times lower.

So how to bring it back to the original Kv (and original rpm)? Use twice less turns. But wait again - you need again twice more amps to get the the saturation level.
So now we have motor that is twice longer with twice longer magnets, with half of original turns (and probably thicker wire) and drawing 4 times more current. It runs the same rpm and delivers 4 times higher torque.

Isn't it slick?

RysiuM
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Old Jun 21, 2004, 06:28 PM
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Remove original CD-ROM motor magnet ring by letting it soak overnight in acetone.
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Old Jun 22, 2004, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olmod
Try going through your collection of shafts with a micrometer and select the smallest diameter,carefully grind a radius on the end then with a dremel grinder grind across halfway up just past the radius,you will have what is known as a D bit,it acts like a cross between a drill and a reamer,of course you will have to drill a pilot hole first before using the D bit.and so long as you dont keep it spinning in the hole to long you should have a press fit.
olmod
This sounds like just what I need. Does a D bit look like this?
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Old Jun 22, 2004, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron van Sommeren
Airgap is not only the gap between the magnet and the stator, the gap between the magnet and flux-ring has the same effect as magnet-stator airgap. Both have to be taken in account. Put iron shims in the space between the magnet and the fluxring, thus reducing the total airgap. Magnetic resistance will be lower, flux increases, less rpm/volt (=Kv) and more torque per ampere (=Kt). Also less chance of local saturation were magnet edges touch the flux ring. More glueing surface too.

Groeten Ron
Along those lines, I now glue magnets to the bell with JB Weld epoxy. Don't know what's in it, but magnets attract the stuff (will even pick up a tube of JB), so it should help in moving the flux along. Put a dab on the bell and place the magnet on it. It will squeeze out the excess. Airgap is zero, though I don't know how efficient the JB Weld is in the flux department.

Kurt
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Old Jun 22, 2004, 12:05 PM
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To help prevent windings from rubbing the inside face of the bell, put the wound stator between two hardwood blocks place in vise or heavy C clamp and squeeze for all you're worth. This "flattens" the windings a few thousandths and may be the difference between rubbing and running freely.

JT
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Old Jun 22, 2004, 12:19 PM
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If you have problems with windings rubbing on a GB kit, it may be that the plastic retainer ring has been pushed too close to the inside face of the bell. Using a drill press or arbor press, "push" the shaft back into the bell a tiny bit. Because the bearing holder/stator is locked on the shaft by the plastic retainer, moving the shaft back also moves the stator back and provides the clearance needed. Unless there is severe rubbing, just 3-5 thousandths is usually enough to free things up.

JT
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Old Jun 22, 2004, 12:29 PM
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When finished winding, I like to use hot glue to hold the leads tight to prevent them from possibly uncoiling and rubbing.
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Old Jun 22, 2004, 12:57 PM
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Fishnut

It will certainly be better than other adhesives,why i say that is because i have read and i did post somewhere a couple of links to the csiro wich have a couple of papers on materials made of compounds i suspect are similar and are useing and testing for manufacture of stators ect, the main thing is not to have any between the magnets as this is detrimental so ive been informed by a manufacturer here in melbourne. imagine moulded stators if you are interested try checking my past posts.
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Old Jun 22, 2004, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsons
When finished winding, I like to use hot glue to hold the leads tight to prevent them from possibly uncoiling and rubbing.
1. For that I use a nylon thread (it's NOT a dental floss, this one comes from the string from old blinders). One yard is good for going 4 times around each pole. I wrap it by doing a "slalom" around the poles, so after first round (9 poles) the string is comming out from the other side, this way two rounds around wrap evry pole from both sides (I hope it's clear).

2. To hold a stock can on the shaft use a prop adapter (or even a collar) that fits tight on the shaft and it's glued to the front of the bell. Any good glue for metal will do (Locite, plasti-zap, JBWeld).

RysiuM
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Paul Matt on CD-ROM? tiggs Scale Kit/Scratch Built 2 Mar 26, 2002 08:07 PM
F/S Realflight Sim.. CD-Rom jfruge Aircraft - Electric - Airplanes (FS/W) 2 Oct 29, 2001 08:17 AM