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Old Nov 18, 2002, 04:35 PM
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Americans must convert to Islam

What happened to the people who say that terrorism comes from despair and poverty? What do they say now?

al-Qaeda now demands (supossedly in return for an end to terrorism) that the US give up its support for Israel and that all Americans convert to Islam. al-Qaeda's main demand USED TO BE that Americans get off their holy soil.

As well, the demands by al-Qeada are now being made on behalf of the "Muslim Nation". Why are other Muslim leaders not loudly distancing themselves from this statement?
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 04:48 PM
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My current girlfriend used to be muslim so its interesting to hear what she has to say about this whole thing. She told me that to be a true muslim isnt to be a terrorist,and true muslims are actually peace loving...I also work with 2-3 muslims who think that whoever these terrorists are are just using the religion as a front and are mad at these slanderers for giving their religion and people a black eye.

Not to say that I'm in any way a diciple of Allah or anything,in fact I'm christian,but I'm just pointing out that this stupidity is not the whole voice of all muslims,certainly not the majority.
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael in Toronto
As well, the demands by al-Qeada are now being made on behalf of the "Muslim Nation". Why are other Muslim leaders not loudly distancing themselves from this statement?
Certainly you aren't trying to imply that the MAJORITY of Muslims OR thier "leadership" support the violence of al-Qeada, are you? That's what it sure sounds like.
Spreading that sort of nonsense helps nothing, is irresponsible and inflammatory.
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 05:41 PM
Mr Mootsie
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no, they probably don't endorse this kind of Islam....but don't you think the silence is telling...deafening even?

Even President Bush and Colin Powell denounced the religious right this past weekend when they called all of Islam terrorists.

also, I vote for a moratorium on all use of emoticons.....
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
President Bush and Colin Powell denounced the religious right this past weekend when they called all of Islam terrorists.

*************************************

Certainly you aren't trying to imply that the MAJORITY of Muslims OR thier "leadership" support the violence of al-Qeada, are you?
President Bush stated that there is no room for intolerence. It was obvious; good for him!

I am not trying to imply that the majority of Muslims or thier "leadership" support the violence of al-Qeada, ...

but their silence doesn't say that they don't support him either. If it is really so obvious that they don't support him, where is the harm in saying so?

How great would it be if Bin Laiden heard from many Muslim nations and believers that they denounce what he stood for?
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:03 PM
Mr Mootsie
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael in Toronto
but their silence doesn't say that they don't support him either. If it is really so obvious that they don't support him, where is the harm in saying so?

How great would it be if Bin Laiden heard from many Muslim nations and believers that they denounce what he stood for?
et, voila!
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:04 PM
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I think the religious stuff is less important than the political power, land and economic concerns. Simply, it's two separate populations of humans having decided they can't compromise and live together...so they will kill each other until they can.

Just like Israel, Ireland, Kashmir and anywhere else you find these intractable "we are good, they are evil" (though we are all doing whatever we can to kill) wars.

The religious stuff comes into play as a way to control the next generation...to get teenagers (soldiers and suicide bombers) to do the bidding of those in power.

I don't know about you guys but I find the US War on terror as well as Al Qaeda's terror war both based in hopelessness...just as the growing settlements in the West Bank and the suicide bombers in Israeli cities are.

Killing people, whether with a B-52 or a pipe bomb strapped to your chest, is an act of hopelessness. If the terrorists had the latest in tactical fighter bombers, tanks, helicopter gunships, cruise missiles and unmanned aerial drones...I'm sure they would use them. But they don't...so they use what they have.

Where did you hear this latest demand from Al Q?

It's important to remember there is a PR/propaganda war going on as much as a shooting war.

And Michael, you have shown in the past and continue to show that you are about as biased as they come in this debate...so let's just drop the whole "what about poverty and despair" routine.

People don't turn to killing without some degree of despair.

Like I've said from the beginning, no type, nationality or justification for violence is really any different than another...at the end of the day it's all just more dead people.
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:16 PM
Mr Mootsie
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Quote:
Originally posted by NewbieX


Where did you hear this latest demand from Al Q?

here
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael in Toronto
How great would it be if Bin Laiden heard from many Muslim nations and believers that they denounce what he stood for?
That's been done by many (most?) Muslim leaders already. Is it really necessary that they repeat it each time some maniac al-Qeada supporter manages to get some press?
I fail to see the significance or even the point. Why would it be "great"? Would it change ANYTHING?
I can also understand why a country or leader might indeed be quiet. Making an unnecessary public statement that accomplishes nothing may indeed be inviting further violence. For what?

Long before 9/11 Saudi Arabia expelled Bin Laden from the country. That alone says all I need to know.
Yet there are those in this country who think we should ATTACK Saudi Arabia - an allie of the U.S. for over 40 years!
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrMootsie
Even President Bush and Colin Powell denounced the religious right this past weekend when they called all of Islam terrorists.
Funny, I don't remember doing that...

We shouldn't think of any people as monolithic groups. I know that you didn't intend any harm, Tim, but the "religious right" that I am a member of is not the same "religious right" that watches the 700 club.

I vote Republican. I'm Christian. I identify with the words "religious right" for that reason. But no Christian I have met thinks that all Muslims are terrorists. We see Muslims the same way we see everyone else. It's fashionable to lump Christians together with Robertson, Falwell, etc, but only because it is a convenient way to discount our viewpoints. Painting people with a broad brush is wrong when Falwell does it just as it is wrong when you, my friend, do it.

I would like to see the quote that Powell and Bush were talking about so I can have a chance to denounce it (or defend it) in the proper context.

Jim
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NewbieX
And Michael, you have shown in the past and continue to show that you are about as biased as they come in this debate...so let's just drop the whole "what about poverty and despair" routine.
You are right. I am biased. I'm also honest and I'm also scared.

I believe there is a right and a wrong; a good and an evil. I don't believe that Muslim 'extremists' are fighting only for land and out of poverty.

You are also right when you say "People don't turn to killing without some degree of despair."

... But I think that their despair may come from the fear and threats of women living as equals among men, from the freedom of others to follow other religions, from freedom of speech, from freedom of information.

I'm scared that if even a tiny fraction of a fraction of the approx. 1 billion Muslims are extremists, then this will be a dangerous and life-threatening problem that cannot be overcome.

**********************************************

As far as the whole "what about poverty and despair" routine, I say loud and clear that all people should be allowed to live where they are or where they want, in freedom, with the right to earn a proper living, with security for their families, in peace. I don't call for land to be given to one people or another. I just don't believe that all terrorists turn to killing without despair.
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael in Toronto
You are right. I am biased. I'm also honest and I'm also scared.

I believe there is a right and a wrong; a good and an evil. I don't believe that Muslim 'extremists' are fighting only for land and out of poverty.

You are also right when you say "People don't turn to killing without some degree of despair."

... But I think that their despair may come from the fear and threats of women living as equals among men, from the freedom of others to follow other religions, from freedom of speech, from freedom of information.

I'm scared that if even a tiny fraction of a fraction of the approx. 1 billion Muslims are extremists, then this will be a dangerous and life-threatening problem that cannot be overcome.

*****
As far as the whole "what about poverty and despair" routine, I say loud and clear that all people should be allowed to live where they are or where they want, in freedom, with the right to earn a proper living, with security for their families, in peace. I don't call for land to be given to one people or another. I just don't believe that all terrorists turn to killing without despair.
*****************************************

So a continued War on Terror will eventually stop the terrorist from becoming one... Does the War on Drugs stop the druggies from becoming drugged. Look at our prison system and be HONEST...... The analogy applies, more than you think. Especially now on the eve of our "War on Saddam" Mk. II. I mean, what ever happened to, "Bin Laden, oh never mind" Mk. I..

]
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbourke
I would like to see the quote that Powell and Bush were talking about so I can have a chance to denounce it (or defend it) in the proper context.

Jim
Actually, I support Falwell and Robertson. There is no need to defend them nor to denounce them. They are well within their rights to say what they want, even if you, or I , or President Bush don't agree with them. They can say what they want.

I have not heard of Falwell or Robertson firing machine guns, throwing bombs, hurling planes into buildings or strapping explosives on themselves, nor have they encouraged anyone else to do so.

There is no need to defend them.

Quote:
Originally posted by CoastalFlyer
I That's been done by many (most?) Muslim leaders already. Is it really necessary that they repeat it each time some maniac al-Qeada supporter manages to get some press?

Making an unnecessary public statement that accomplishes nothing may indeed be inviting further violence. For what?

Yes, it is neccessary. But they don't - for the very reason you post; they are afraid to make such statements for fear of the backlash from their own people who do support these extremists.
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 06:56 PM
Mr Mootsie
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbourke
Funny, I don't remember doing that...

We shouldn't think of any people as monolithic groups. I know that you didn't intend any harm, Tim, but the "religious right" that I am a member of is not the same "religious right" that watches the 700 club.

I vote Republican. I'm Christian. I identify with the words "religious right" for that reason. But no Christian I have met thinks that all Muslims are terrorists. We see Muslims the same way we see everyone else. It's fashionable to lump Christians together with Robertson, Falwell, etc, but only because it is a convenient way to discount our viewpoints. Painting people with a broad brush is wrong when Falwell does it just as it is wrong when you, my friend, do it.

I would like to see the quote that Powell and Bush were talking about so I can have a chance to denounce it (or defend it) in the proper context.

Jim
as a fellow Christian Republican, point well taken. Perhaps I should have emphasized, or capitalized, Religious Right in the Falwell /Robertson sense.

Here is the story.
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Old Nov 18, 2002, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael in Toronto
But they don't - for the very reason you post; they are afraid to make such statements for fear of the backlash from their own people who do support these extremists.
There you go again - condemning a large group (their own people) for the actions of the miniscule.
No - I don't believe they are afraid of the backlash from thier own people. However, they may well be afraid of a terrorist cell who might strike if provoked. There is a big difference.
Then again, we are just speculating, aren't we? Maybe they just don't feel a constant condemnation is necessary. Remember, they don't live in fear like so many do elsewhere. Why is that?

I don't choose to live in fear of what might happen. Choosing that path, as you say you do, means the terrorists have already achieved thier stated goal.
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