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Old Feb 17, 2013, 10:10 PM
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Canada, BC, Maple Ridge
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Questions about the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS)

In another thread, these questions were posted.


Where does the Zone commence & the Rule start to apply... ???

Once the Transom of the Outer Boat has crossed the Boundary & entered the Zone
or is it the Bow
Is it the Leading Boat or teh Trailing Boat that determines when teh Ovelap commences..

Scenario 1..
• Windward Mark
o Boats on Same Tack.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS established Overlap.

Scenario 2
• Windward Mark
o Boats on Same Tack.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS NOT established Overlap

Scenario 3
• Wing Mark
o Boats on Opposite Tacks.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS established Overlap.

Scenario 4
• Wing Mark
o Boats on Opposite Tacks.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS NOT established Overlap

Scenario 5
• Leeward Mark
o Boats on Same Tack.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS established Overlap.

Scenario 6
• Leeward Mark
o Boats on Same Tack.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS NOT established Overlap

Scenario 7
• Clearing Marks
o Established to ease congestion
• Are these considered as ONE Rounding.
• When is Overlap Broken?
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 10:28 PM
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Canada, BC, Maple Ridge
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Where does the Zone commence & the Rule start to apply... ???

Once the Transom of the Outer Boat has crossed the Boundary & entered the Zone
or is it the Bow
Is it the Leading Boat or teh Trailing Boat that determines when teh Ovelap commences..


R 18 gets turned on when the first part part (usually the bow) of a boat touches the zone. Usually this is the leading boat. That set the mark room rights for that boat and other following or overlapped boats.

Scenario 1..
• Windward Mark
o Boats on Same Tack.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS established Overlap.


Then B is entitled to mark room and A must give it.

Scenario 2
• Windward Mark
o Boats on Same Tack.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS NOT established Overlap


We do not know which boat gets to the zone first, but as they are not overlapped, the first boat gets mark room and the other boat must give it.

Scenario 3
• Wing Mark
o Boats on Opposite Tacks.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS established Overlap.

Scenario 4
• Wing Mark
o Boats on Opposite Tacks.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS NOT established Overlap


I don't understand these two scenarios - to me boats will be on the same tack at a wing mark.

Scenario 5
• Leeward Mark
o Boats on Same Tack.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS established Overlap.


As the overlap was established before reaching the zone, B is entitled to mark room, and that may include room to gybe.

Scenario 6
• Leeward Mark
o Boats on Same Tack.. A & B
o B is Inside Boat & HAS NOT established Overlap


Again cannot tell which is the leading boat, bat the leading boat is entitled to mark room as no overlap existed when her bow touched the zone.


Scenario 7
• Clearing Marks
o Established to ease congestion
• Are these considered as ONE Rounding.
• When is Overlap Broken?


I think you are referring to an offset weather mark - a mark usually set about 10 meters or so abeam of the weather mark to prevent boats rounding the weather mark from baring off into the path of other boats still beating up to the mark - a very sensible safety precaution.

Common practice is to set the two marks far enough apart so that the zones do not overlap. In any case, each is a separate mark with its own zone. So mark room and issues like overlapped or clear astern/clear ahead are set individually for each mark, as its zone is reached. Mark room rights from the first mark does not carry over to the second mark.

John
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 12:19 AM
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Right my turn,

Boat on Starboard hits boat on port midships, starboard boat doesnt call starboard. Boat on starboard gets a lift just before the incident but was sailing their proper coarse.
Port boat calls hunting
Incident goes to protest committee and port boat is let off.


Some answers on this would be helpful

PS good thread John
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball View Post


Again cannot tell which is the leading boat, bat the leading boat is entitled to mark room as no overlap existed when her bow touched the zone.


John

John

Lets assume the Inside Boat "B" is clear ahead..


If at the time when the Boat on Port Tack reaches the Buoy the Starbord Boat has gained ground & we are confronted with the Port/Starboard situation..

At what point & by what means is Mark Room still required.. At some time the Port Tack Boat will need to change tack to round the mark safely..


Not totally sure but I seem to remember references to seamanship rounding has been removed in the current rules... I could be wrong..
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8387mike View Post
Right my turn,

Boat on Starboard hits boat on port midships, starboard boat doesnt call starboard. Boat on starboard gets a lift just before the incident but was sailing their proper coarse.
Port boat calls hunting
Incident goes to protest committee and port boat is let off.


Some answers on this would be helpful

PS good thread John
The starboard boat is the starboard boat and he is entitled to follow lifts. However, he is required to give the leeward boat room to keep clear as his course changes. While not required to hail, particularly in model boats it is a good idea. If nothing else, it marks the amount of time between when the port boat should know it needs to alter course and when to infraction takes place. If that time is 12 milliseconds, the starboard boat would be at fault. If it is 3 seconds, the port boat would be at fault. Of course, as I said, the starboard boat is not required to hail, and this scenario assumes that he is hailing as soon as he sees the situation.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 08:16 AM
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seabee CE's Avatar
United States, NC
Joined Feb 2012
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Here is a nice link that does a pretty good job of explaining the rules.
http://gmyc.spruz.com/racing-rules.htm
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats View Post
John

Lets assume the Inside Boat "B" is clear ahead..


If at the time when the Boat on Port Tack reaches the Buoy the Starbord Boat has gained ground & we are confronted with the Port/Starboard situation..

At what point & by what means is Mark Room still required.. At some time the Port Tack Boat will need to change tack to round the mark safely..


Not totally sure but I seem to remember references to seamanship rounding has been removed in the current rules... I could be wrong..
My answer to this related to scenario 2 with both boats on same tack.. Now you have the boats on opposite tacks - so different situation.

When boats approach a windward mark on opposite tacks, R 18 does not apply (R 18.2.b ). It is as if the mark is not there. R 10 applies and P keeps clear of S.

However, is P tacks in the zone, then R 18 is back on and R 18.3 applies. So if the boat that tacked (P) tacks inside S, then she is entitled to mark room except she cannot make S sail above close hauled. If she tacks outside S, then she must give S mark room. And while tacking she must comply with R 13 Tacking.

Seamanship is in the definition of ROOM. Room is in the definition of MARK ROOM. So it is still there.

John
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 08:37 AM
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Canada, BC, Maple Ridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8387mike View Post
Right my turn,

Boat on Starboard hits boat on port midships, starboard boat doesnt call starboard. Boat on starboard gets a lift just before the incident but was sailing their proper coarse.
Port boat calls hunting
Incident goes to protest committee and port boat is let off.


Some answers on this would be helpful

PS good thread John
This sounds like a use for R 16.1. Even though S is ROW, he cannot suddenly change course (even on a lift) without giving the other boat ROOM to keep clear.

John
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats View Post
John

Lets assume the Inside Boat "B" is clear ahead..


If at the time when the Boat on Port Tack reaches the Buoy the Starbord Boat has gained ground & we are confronted with the Port/Starboard situation..

At what point & by what means is Mark Room still required.. At some time the Port Tack Boat will need to change tack to round the mark safely..


Not totally sure but I seem to remember references to seamanship rounding has been removed in the current rules... I could be wrong..
If this is at a leeward mark boat "B" does not have to give room because it was clear ahead at the zone. Port/starboard does not matter. The Starboard can't gain rights once inside the zone.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedFlack View Post
If this is at a leeward mark boat "B" does not have to give room because it was clear ahead at the zone. Port/starboard does not matter. The Starboard can't gain rights once inside the zone.
What Ted said!

At a downwind mark with boats on opposite tacks (opposite gybes might be easier to understand), R 18 does NOT get turned off. So we have a situation where two rules apply (R 18.2 and R 10). So each rule modifies the rights/obligations of the other.

Port is clear ahead at the zone - so R 18 grants her mark room. S catches up and establishes an overlap from astern inside the zone. P is still entitled to Mark room, and S will be DSQ if she goes inside P. However if S goes outside P, the presence of S outside P will restrict how far away from the mark that P can sail. Also if P has to gybe to round the mark, then the room includes room to gybe.

John
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8387mike View Post
Right my turn,

Boat on Starboard hits boat on port midships, starboard boat doesnt call starboard. Boat on starboard gets a lift just before the incident but was sailing their proper coarse.
Port boat calls hunting
Incident goes to protest committee and port boat is let off.


Some answers on this would be helpful

PS good thread John
I assume that the boats are on a beat to windward. If so then first of all there is no proper course on a beat to windward.
A right of way boat when altering course must not do so in a way that prevents the other boat from keeping clear.
If the starboard tack boat gets a lift just before the incident she will have to prove that she was far enough away from the port boat for that boat to continue keeping clear by whatever means neccessary (tacking, bearing away, luffing or whatever)
In the incident as you describe it the starboard boat is on a very sticky wicket and is likely to be dsq as the onus would be on her to prove that although she altered course port was still able to avoid contact.

PS port was not 'let off' as she has done nothing wrong.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychosis View Post
I assume that the boats are on a beat to windward. If so then first of all there is no proper course on a beat to windward.
A right of way boat when altering course must not do so in a way that prevents the other boat from keeping clear.
If the starboard tack boat gets a lift just before the incident she will have to prove that she was far enough away from the port boat for that boat to continue keeping clear by whatever means neccessary (tacking, bearing away, luffing or whatever)
In the incident as you describe it the starboard boat is on a very sticky wicket and is likely to be dsq as the onus would be on her to prove that although she altered course port was still able to avoid contact.

PS port was not 'let off' as she has done nothing wrong.
Thanks Psychosis that makes sense, its that bloody hull of yours it loves to point keep warning people to keep up on the same tack
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Old Feb 19, 2013, 08:37 PM
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some of the Latest definitions from 2013-2016 RRS


Quote:
Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,

(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail closeto it, and

(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.


Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap
One boat is clear astern of anotherwhen her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern.

However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both.

These terms always apply to boats on the same tack.

They do not apply to boats on opposite tacks unless rule 18 applies or both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.


Fetching
A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

Zone
The area around a mark within a distance of three hull lengths of the boat nearer to it.

A boat is in the zone when any part of her hull is in the zone.
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Old Feb 19, 2013, 08:38 PM
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Old Feb 19, 2013, 09:06 PM
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Opposite Tacks @ the Marks..

The Cause of Almost ALL disputes on the water..

How many times does a Port Tack Boat fetching the mark get called for an infringement..

Quote:

18.4 Gybing
When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark to sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from the mark than needed to sail that course. Rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate mark.
Windsurfing & Kiteboarding have altered 18.4 to provide for Gybing/Bearing Away..


In so far as a Boat is Clear Ahead when entering the Zone although on Port Tack, it merely has to Gybe around the mark to continue..

But how many times do we hear the Call for Protests..

Why, because the Gybe is suddenly turned into a tack in the Zone and tehn we hear the calls for 18,3

Quote:
18.3 Tacking in the Zone
If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them. The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and

(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her.
The Port Boat was never Overlapped (Clear Ahead) & it seems that lots of R/C Skippers then get confused as to when & at what specific instance 18.3 & 18.4 apply..

At the Marks) what constitues a Tack as opposed to a Gybe


Quote:
Room
The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.
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