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Old Sep 15, 2013, 11:37 PM
I'm your huckleberry
Doc Holiday48's Avatar
USA, CA, Gardena
Joined Jun 2004
1,814 Posts
Congrats to Brandon, Matt, and Target. Matt I did not watch your scores that much during the race, you did well. Target only got me by 5.05 points! almost got you, but didn't. Come on out and fly some more with us, it was fun flying with you today. You to Matt.

Dan, It has been really fun chasing you all season, and the verbal joust as well. One more race to go, looking forward to another chance to duel again.

Bob
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 12:18 AM
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lblife's Avatar
USA, CA, Seal Beach
Joined Aug 2010
233 Posts
It was great to wiggle the sticks again. Thank you Dan for CDing. Huge thank you to Target for getting my plane back in the air. Congrats to Brando on the win. It was great seeing everyone!
Matt
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 12:49 PM
Registered Cruiser
United States, CA, Torrance
Joined Jan 2013
186 Posts
Thanks Dan for CD'ing a great event...........Thanks to Target, Brandon for the encouragement and tips.........It definitely helped dealing with the tough conditions................ I had a great time and learned a lot.

I especially appreciated:

- All good landings with no drama in spite of the rotors
- Flying in very bumpy conditions without too many heart stopping moments
- No damage to my plane
- Brandon K. not commenting on me almost spiking his plane into the dirt while launching it.
- Watching some excellent pilots cranking perfect turns @ Base B in crazy conditions.

Yep,a pretty damn good day! See ya @ Fermin.
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 12:52 PM
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Riverside, California, United States
Joined Feb 2004
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Steve,

Keep practicing and just focus on tightening things up a little at a time......

Glad to help if I can......

B
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 03:03 PM
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BDK74's Avatar
United States, CA, Redondo Beach
Joined Sep 2012
548 Posts
Thanks Dan! That was a challenging race with some interesting conditions.

No worries Steve. Sooner or later...
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 04:54 PM
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Fullerton, CA
Joined Nov 2004
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You're all welcome, thanks for coming out. Glad others thought the conditions were challenging as I sure thought so. Not so sure I have ever seen WP quite like that before. Wind lines coming out of the upper cove, give me a break. Couple of degrees of a right shift and you were toast yet the wind speed other than gusty was rather steady. Pretty hard to plan or guess on ballast based on a shift coming.

Brandon M sure had left to right figured out for the most part, got hosed on a right shift in rnd 8 but other than that did very well.

Target for not flying F3F much lately still has "B" wired, pull/beep all day until it bit him with a cut in rnd 7 or 8. 7&8 dropped out of a firm 2nd giving up like 22 seconds to Matt, pretty even through 6 rnds.
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 05:51 PM
Detail Freak
target's Avatar
Harbor City, CA
Joined Oct 2003
21,859 Posts
Yep, Rule #1:
NEVER cut on the first turn.

Rule #2
See rule #1....

Oh well. It was a challenge and I enjoyed greasing every landing IN SPITE of the commercial pilot watching me, LoL.

R,
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 06:30 PM
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Fullerton, CA
Joined Nov 2004
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Rule 1 & 2 are both very good rules to have. I was in fact paying you a compliment of how well you WERE hitting B all day until.... the cut. Nice flying.

Greased landings are always good.
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 06:39 PM
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Fullerton, CA
Joined Nov 2004
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Many thanks to the peanut gallery for no grumbling on Pole Duty. I know WE all like this newer format of staying on a base rather than just go after you land. But, it can be a challenge for the CD in the heat of battle trying to figure out who best to send.

First round is a no brainer but after dropping pilots in the flight order and if the timing to change is off a bit it's not so easy. OK, send Bill. Bill is on B, oh. mmm send Target, Target just got off of "A". mmmm Send,,, he's up in two. mmmmm, just saying, thanks.

I know some worked a bit more than a fair share and I appreciate the understanding. As well as not getting in a tiff when someone got called in late and needed a ballast change causing a delay. It's a good system but has some flaws of which don't come close to the Pole Nazi days, so it's all good.
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 09:26 PM
Detail Freak
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Harbor City, CA
Joined Oct 2003
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I think it was fine, but with just 9 guys, it makes it harder.
Pesonally, with 9 guys flying a coastal site, I would have just stuck to the order (or pulled a number from the hat to start with) and left it there. That may or may not make picking pole duty easier.
Again, more pilots makes it easier yet. Dont know why slackers TT and WD weren't there!
I don't mind base duty; that is where you really see what works and what doesn't!

R,
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Old Sep 16, 2013, 11:19 PM
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Fullerton, CA
Joined Nov 2004
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Hey Target

I wouldn't mind some discussion of any plan to make it easier. The argument is or was, even on a Coastal site like we have around here the breeze is building the pilots going last in a round always have an advantage which is true, though WP which shut down in the last round kinda blows that. WP also went Right in rnd 6 then straightened out again.

Point is, random might not be a bad idea, at least not necessarily any worse. So, throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, what if there was a number draw at the beginning of each round? Sure the same pilots could get the last ups per round just being lucky but not likely.

Wouldn't take but 3-5 mins to draw, last two go to the poles, first two relieve after they land for each round. For smaller groups of course, once to about 15 pilots it works easy with the existing method.
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Old Sep 17, 2013, 01:22 AM
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Riverside, California, United States
Joined Feb 2004
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Yes, we all had to work extra pole duty with the 10 guys that we had, but not all that bad really.
I'm not sure taking the time to do a random draw after each round makes much sense as it would
likely slow things down too much?

Target makes a good argument that being on the base can be eye opening and can show you
what's working and what's not. We should experiment with different rotations to see what works
best, but I think with a couple more guys it would have been more manageable for sure.

B
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Old Sep 17, 2013, 11:15 PM
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Harbor City, CA
Joined Oct 2003
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I thought it was pretty bearable the way it was.
Random rotation or flight order is (IMO) a large waste of time when you couple a small group at a coastal site.
The more rounds you fly, the less any flight order influences the results. Drawing for every round's flight order (doing anything that takes the order away and causes a delay) will result in less rounds, and that hurts the result (although about two less rounds would have made me happy-I mean better-with the result!)....
If you were hosting a 25 person event or even 15+ at an inland slope, then it may make sense to alter the order.
But you have to ask yourself this question: How do you ever know if what you are doing is making the race results more or less "fair"?? You never will know for certain, ever. Its impossible by the nature of F3F to make it 100% "fair"... Thats why all sorts of Man on Man soaring events are so popular (well, except for maybe slope racing MoM), it takes the conditions out of the equation. That goes for thermal also.

So, my opinion is that everyone is over complicating things with regards to the flight order. Its my belief that the best thing to do is to get in as many rounds as possible, most efficiently, with not having to rush to a base, and being allowed time to make a ballast change as necessary if you just came back or landed. I think that you guys are about there. There may be some optimization available by figuring out a "base work matrix" ahead of time. But if and when guys drop out, that will get screwed up too.

-Sigh-

Oh well, it is what it is!
Congrats to all that prevailed in those interesting conditions!
R,
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Old Sep 18, 2013, 02:07 AM
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Fullerton, CA
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Excellent. Two responses tearing apart the Idea which is fine but neither shot the messenger, this is good.

I like the method of tossing stuff at the wall to see what sticks no matter how far out as long as the messenger is not shot nor attacked. But, it's best when either the idea is built upon, modified or tossed out and a new idea is presented. :-)

Now I am not convinced a random draw for each round accomplishes anything for fairness in a building breeze, just tossing it out there. Random for only one event could still put one pilot with more than his fair share of being somewhere near last in each round. But, it would resolve the Pole Duty where last two go to poles, first two land and relieve so the CD would know at the beginning of each round what needs to be done.

Delays - in a random or another method suggested of reversing the order could put the pilot who flew last now be up again. He should be allowed a ballast change if he wants and result in a delay.

Delay for round draw could be nullified being completed at the beginning while we are standing around waiting for wind, no delay during the event. But the CD would need to lot's of writing, just how many rounds do you want to prepare for, can we do 6,8 11??. So yes there could be a delay during if a new draw is needed.

I still agree on a coastal site in a building breeze the last ups in a round need to be at least minimized or spread around. I think skipping pilots works rather well to accomplish this, just trying to make it easier to assign pole duty and in the fairest possible method which may not ever be totally fair.

Playing around with this comp., I think in many cases the magic number to skip would be 2. With two skipped pilots, last two for the current round always go a base at the start of round and get relieved by the first two after they land.

In theory the last two should get relieved around the 5th or 6 th pilot of the round I would think depending on how difficult the LZ.

Issue is the dang CD messes it all up. CD needs someone to take over for what, 3 or 4 pilots or so? CD doesn't take a base. No problem until the CD is in the first or last two. Have not got that far ( playing with a spreadsheet ) but it should work out to only need to grab the pilot above the CD to either be on a pole or be a reliever.

Cool thing is, the relievers are getting skipped for the next round so they are good stay a bit. Should help eliminate any delays when a pilot gets forgotten on a base and needs a ballast change of which happened a few times.

I don't think the system is broken, just looking for a tweak to improve it.
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Old Sep 18, 2013, 05:59 PM
Detail Freak
target's Avatar
Harbor City, CA
Joined Oct 2003
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I agree with all that you have thought out (clearly, you have thought about this)...
Doing a "random order ahead of time" could be pre-generated the night before IF YOU:

Assign people numbers, and have the numbers re-ordered and on the score sheet pre-printed. I hope you follow me on that. As Bob Segar said, "I feel like a number", people wont have their name written on the score sheet, rather a number. Then its really important for the CD to have a record of who each number is for scoring later.
Thats my added input to your idea.

I DO like having the two base guys there for 1.5 rounds. That saves a lot of time.

I also think it would be best avoid waiting for ballast changes, if it is possible through planning. If not, no biggie.

My whole strategy of fairness involves more flying if possible and less hoopla on the flight order. If the speed of rounds is unaffected by order modification, then it just does't matter at all.

I'm off, to thermal up near work. I hand catch more than the slope GOD, Phil Davey!

R,
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