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Old Oct 01, 2013, 04:33 AM
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XRP 90mm 14-Blade EDF unit

Has anyone seen, or got, the new XRP 90mm 14 blade EDF unit?
XRP seems to mean "CS made and exclusively from X-Flight.com". hehe

Pretty much a "CS12" with some design changes:

1) Collet adaptor - 5mm only.
I doubt there will be an 8mm collet made (would it be physically possible?), but maybe one as a grub screw type? And maybe CS12 shaft adaptors actually fit the same! That would not surprise me (but I don't expect so really).
2) "Normal' thin alloy spinner - I am guessing there is a nut under that spinner, to pull the collet in.
3) 11 Stator housing - which looks very "CS12" in material and shapes also.
4) Seems to have an "Outrunner Wire Cutout" in the front end, that is ready to use if required.

The housing has a lot of traits to say "CS12 heritage", as does the rotor - 14 individual blades and alloy collars to hold it all together.

Seeing X-Flight seem to be the source of the "newer, quality CS12 blades" I would expect those lessons were learnt and this rotor/blades will not have a self-destruct issue. Yet to be seen, but I am confident.....

I guess it might be the next generation..... ??

Collets scare me!! .... Not on 70mm, but by 90mm they do. But maybe that is unfounded fear. I will see.....

....

http://x-flight.com.hk/index.php?sp=...&more=&lang=en

....
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 02:15 AM
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Maybe the rotor assembly will be a match to key into the CS12 hub? Probably unlikely.
But if so it would give the 8mm shaft capability.

It will be interesting to see the LOAD of this fan..... something a few 'steps' away from the CS12 would be good, to give some more power output variables from the commonly chosen CS12 motors.
The XRP-14 70mm (14 blades) is LOWER load than a CS12 70mm (12 blades).... so having 14 blades does not mean much in terms of which way that load difference could be.....
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 02:19 AM
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Peter you can always red loctie collets, and use heat to remove. What gets me is all the new multi blade fans coming out. Remember the 18blade fan, I think most of us have one collecting dust in our closets. The cs12 90mm is proven and great fan when running true and balanced. I might buy one to try it out, but probably wait for some feed back from people here before getting one.
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
Maybe the rotor assembly will be a match to key into the CS12 hub? Probably unlikely.
But if so it would give the 8mm shaft capability.

It will be interesting to see the LOAD of this fan..... something a few 'steps' away from the CS12 would be good, to give some more power output variables from the commonly chosen CS12 motors.
The XRP-14 70mm (14 blades) is LOWER load than a CS12 70mm (12 blades).... so having 14 blades does not mean much in terms of which way that load difference could be.....
are you sure the 14blade 70mm puts less load than the older 12blade 70mm

I am building a su35 with twin cs12 on leopard 2860 motors, now you got me thinking of getting the 14blade fans
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 09:10 AM
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Yes, the 10 & 14 are near identical, and the 12 a bit higher.
You mean the 2200kv leopard.... or???
I would aim for 8S !! In a custom wound Leopard (they will do that for you, no extra charge)... but I am not sure on the exact KV.... 1700KV area?
If you want a low power, just fly around sedately scale, then the 6S HET 3W25 option can do that easy. For 3D high power, then you head into HUGE Amps.... 130+ and still not 1:1 T/W. So you really want 7S or 8S. With 8S of course being even better = lower current. The plane will carry decent 8S size easily.
But 7S can be done far cheaper than 8S.... and the 3W25 can do that.
Leopard the same cost as HET, but then could get the 8S suited KV.
But the CS12 is the best sounding fan, so aiming to match that off would also be a bit better.
LOL.. LOTS to work out.... which is what I am, dawdling, doing.....
I hate the 6S power load!!! I would like to do 8S, but am leaning towards the fair cost saving of 7S - still at least better than 6S Amps. And my already installed 90A SS Series can do 7S just as they are.... so it is a much easier path for me. (Could use a HET 3w25 for that too!... $150 for the pair)
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 09:18 AM
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I should have an XRP14 90mm here by the weekend. I have no idea what motor I will try it with....
Painfully, I made up and balanced ALL my 90mm fans many weeks ago, so one or two will have to be pulled down, and the balancing 'wasted', to get whichever motors I want to test.
Likely to start with 1620kv 6S. Calculate further ideas off that result.
I expect the load to be in the region of the CS12 90mmm really.

I can do 6s and 7S tests, but no suitable batteries for 8S tests (have motors and ESC suited). I have never used 8S in a 90mm, but have two setups sitting dormant/patiently... (plus a 10S of a self built Lander alloy). So I need to finally make a BATTERY decision for how to do 8S the most efficiently. eg what size 4S.... or a straight 8S.... and what optimal capacity (Around 4400mAH total probably.... and 45C area).
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 10:12 AM
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Peter,

Not to derail this thread, but what is the difference between the XRP 70mm 10 blade and the CS 70mm 10 blade?

http://x-flight.com.hk/index.php?sp=...&more=&lang=en

http://x-flight.com.hk/index.php?sp=...&more=&lang=en

Also is there a difference between the collet on the CS 10 blade 70mm and the CS 12 blade 70mm as shown here?

http://x-flight.com.hk/index.php?sp=...&more=&lang=en

As far as collets go I wouldn't have a problem trusting a collet on a 90mm fan. If they are machined true they are typically better than a grub screw type collet. Grub screws tend to push the collet off of center. The only grub screw collet that I have seen that didn't do this is on Tam's Dynamax collet which is a lap fit to the motor shaft. Tam's grub screw collet uses a brass bushing as well.

Fred Baldwin's Dyn 'E' Max conversion uses a collet motor adapter and that's a 127mm fan. Scroll down on this link near the bottom you can see his collet which is made of steel I believe instead of aluminum.

http://www.dyn-e-max.com/fan_kits.html
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Old Oct 03, 2013, 01:28 AM
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XRP is CS, I am pretty sure...
The XRP10 rotor is a CS10, but the housing is much better - 9 stator too.
The XRP14 is a 14 blade rotor, in that same housing.
The same adaptor set comes with all types (3.17 & 4mm collets).
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Old Oct 06, 2013, 05:27 PM
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The XRP 90mm 14-Blade fan turned up this morning....

I guess it was pretty well exactly as expected.... the same sort of thing, and quality, as the C12 90mm (which is a very nice fan unit).

11 Stator housing. Pretty much the same basis of design as the CS12 housing is. Stamped "XRP Mode1" instead of "Changesun".
It all looks nicely moulded (plastics), or machined (alloys), again a lot like the CS12 is.

The hub rings LOOK identical to the CS12, but I won't know until I dis-assemble it to measure it... and test 'cross breeding' (if required). I think the rear hub ring will be a collet specific design though - but quite possibly replaceable with the CS12 one. The main aim of that is that it would allow the use of CS12 8mm shaft adaptors then. AND grub screws instead of collet. The problem will be GETTING (buying) the rear hub ring if it is needed. You can buy the shaft adaptors easily, but not the hub rings.
But I will leave that checking until after I run this one up "intact" first, so that any 'issues' are not ones I might have created.
I will most likely assemble and balance one up tonight, but not sure if I can run it up after that.

"Locking" a collet adaptor with loctite would be annoying for DIS-ASSEMBLY.... not so bad if it is the 'final' assembly and then going for long term use in a jet. But a nuisance when testing.

...
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Old Oct 07, 2013, 07:14 AM
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The housing fits up to 39mm motors. NOT 40mm.
So it is just like the CS12 in that respect too.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPE View Post
What gets me is all the new multi blade fans coming out. Remember the 18blade fan, I think most of us have one collecting dust in our closets. The cs12 90mm is proven and great fan when running true and balanced. I might buy one to try it out, but probably wait for some feed back from people here before getting one.
Agree 100%

I too am guilty of having an 18B in the closet, what junk. After that failure I haven't had a need for any other 90mm Fan other then my CS12. Like you said its proven and tested! I've seen videos and heard the XRP 14B in person and there isn't too much of a defining sound to make me ditch the Cs12, plus it eats more amps.
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 03:53 AM
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XRP 14 90mm stripped down

I didn't have a motor I wanted to use to test the XRP14 but that arrived today.
Lander 1600kv 3674 2400W
This should allow 6S and 7S testing.

I stripped down the XRP14 to check out the 'bits'.....
The individual blades now have KEYING built in!! So that is an extra, STRONG, interlocking system to assure they do not explode!

The front and rear hub rings are NOT the same diameters as the CS12 90mm.... they are 0.5mm smaller. This means you can NOT interchange the hubs, to get grub screw form of the CS12 on the XRP14.

The Spinner is a quite hefty TWO piece assembly - seemingly an interference fit of those two parts and not intended to be separated.
Interesting.....
BUT, the spinner is made to mate to the front hub ring and the two diameters are almost 1mm different!! So that means there is a LOT of freeplay/error you could end up with there!
The spinner bolt will try to center it, but that is never going to get it dead right! Sigh....
UPDATE: The spinner not only 'centers' on the alloy hub ring, but also on the blade roots themselves - and it is a good fit on them, so then it all sits on solidly aligned! (to however well aligned that is....)

I weighed some blades and quickly encountered some with LARGE variation. 3.13g.... 2.99g !!!... most in the 3.10g to 3.12g range.
This had happened on some of my CS12's too.
So what you do is weigh them all, recording each blade's weight, then re-assemble the rotor in a pattern that equalises them all as best as possible.
I didn't check them out as they pulled them apart, so I don't know if THEY matched them off on assembly... but I would expect they do NOT.

Prior to dis-assembly I had tested the Dynamic Balance as it came... it was terrible. You would certainly not want to run it out to max RPM like that!
To balance it, you can remove the rear hub ring and it will stay intact (like CS12's could too), and then put some CA or Epoxy into the base of the blades.

So then came the worst part of the COLLET adaptor idea....
BALANCING!
You can't even do it.
The collet can slide on the motor shaft as soon as you loosen it, so that means it goes forwards - or worse, rearwards to hit the motor housing hub - whenever you want to try to rotate/move it. You can NEVER put it back as it was the balance test before, so you will always be altering balances just by even undoing it!
I tried various ways to keep it a constant, but it is impossible!
So there is no way you could ever balance it consistently and reliably!

I tried... and tried.... no hope....

One way, I didn't want to do, MIGHT be if you used Loctite to hold the collet onto the motor shaft in an assured fixed position... but what happens as the collet still opens up a bit, when you undo the nut? Something has to move....

MAYBE if the rotor is STATICALLY Balanced to perfection, then it would be good enough to just balance Dynamically perfectly without doing anything then....??? Unlikely....

So all in all at this instant, as much as it looks a great design - ALMOST - the Collet system is a major weak point!!
I can only think (hope) that Wemo's collets can work because the whole fan assembly IS perfectly balanced as it comes(?). But really, grub screws are the best way to go for assured perfection!

...
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 04:11 AM
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At the rear hub ring it is a 12mm shaft adaptor diameter, but the front hub ring is a 9.70mm diameter (10mm??).
Maybe there is a way to adapt some other fan's grub screw system to this hub system, but the chances are slim.... and also almost certain to need some machining to complete.

Another issue (for some motors) is that the XRP14 shaft adaptor has a 20mm hole depth into it, so you really want a fair amount of that 'used' by the motor shaft. eg Something like 15mm or more. But the Lander motor has only about a 12mm shaft, and you also need to have the shaft adaptor further along the motor shaft some amount so that the fan hub does not hit the housing hub, so I would guesstimate that only 10mm, to 8mm, of the Lander shaft is in the Collet!!
You really want a motor with a 20mm shaft length at least.

12mm is long enough IF it was a grub screw type adaptor..... (though more would still be useful)
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 04:13 AM
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So now there is:
A nice fan HOUSING....
An improved blade interlocking system.....
More blades (quieter, noisier, or??)....

And a semi-useless way to MOUNT the rotor to a motor!

I am not sure I can even use it at all.....
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 07:20 AM
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Balancing

I wanted to balance out every blade to be much closer weights, so the few lighter ones needed to be brought up in weight. 0.17g approx for three, to bring them all to appropriate equals.
The only place to add weight is in the inner blade root edge, so I added a bead of CA. But a big bead was still 0.06g short.... that would have to do.
Then I re-assembled the blades in a calculated 'balancing out' blade pattern.....
Getting the last blade keyed in was fun!!! Definitely possible, but tricky.

oh oh... the shaft adaptor cannot pass through now because it runs RIGHT along the blade roots! The CS12 does not do that..... it has a gap to them.
At least it is a better design idea!! They have locked down the blades from every angle!! Even the spinner assists in that blade lock down!

So off came all the CA beading....
There is nowhere at all the ADD weight to a blade.
Removing weight?? Well there are a lot (8) to remove weight from... and from where??
I decided it was not possible, so I would have to assemble the rotor with blades in their calculated 'best' positions again and then use the SPINNER to Dynamic Balance it all.
I guess it still all adds up to a Static Balance either way (CA or not).

I decided to get the collet onto the motor shaft and lock it down solid right away, and never shift that again. If I was going to use this in a jet I would use some red loctite on the shaft adaptor too!! But for this case/test, I am going to replace the rotor with a CS12 rotor later, to compare their results in the exact same motor/housing situation.
Not being able to rotate the adaptor for balancing removes one of the 'tools' to get a balance done without weight additions - and possibly in a better way than weight added more up front of the fan.... further away from the motor front bearing. BUT if it is all done to high accuracy levels then that distance should be quite irrelevant really.

In its new 'raw' form, on the Dynex Vortex Dynamic Balancer setup, it was "unacceptable"... "100mV+" at low/med RPM, heading towards '200mV" by the worst peak, so that showed it was not going to be anywhere near good enough. 30mV or so is an excellent balance, and by 50mV or so it is very 'average' and not really acceptable. 100mV is probably like most fans would come out with no balancing effort made - though it is a lucky dip of factors, so even a never balanced fan COULD fluke coming out great! (rare though)

A 4-Point balance showed it needed 0.30g added, so I put that inside the spinner - seeing there is no other way to do it!

Now the max imbalance value was "40mV" at high RPM, and a very well balanced CS12 is around 30mV area or so. So that was still a very good balance and you can also tell by the nice 'quiet whirr' of the fan at higher RPM.
Balancing is done at lower RPM levels (3000 RPM region), but with just a 3S battery seeing you only need low end RPM to balance a fan. This battery allows a fair clip of RPM at max - enough to wind it up more to prove a good balance.

A fan will start at imbalance "X" at low RPM, then the imbalance readout will grow, but then drop off again and never go up again as RPM rises more - so that lower end peak is an accurate point to tell the worst case. (Tons of fan balancing results show this to hold true).

So the balancing is all done, and it is ready to go to power tests.
I could have spent a bit more time on fine tuning it down towards "30mV" but it is heading down to diminishing returns anyway - and again, if for a jet use then I would do that extra amount.

My main worry is the fan shooting off the motor shaft!! LOL
The filed down shaft adaptor flats allow me to do it up VERY solidly with ease - without flats you could never even do it up really well anyway! Who knows how they intend it to be done properly without those!

Hopefully I can do tests tomorrow evening......
The two main standout POSITIVES so far are the much nicer fan housing, and also the 'multiple angles' of blade lockdown they have used! This rotor should NOT be able to explode really!!
I still HATE the Collet adaptor idea, but at least I made it all work.....
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