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Old Feb 14, 2015, 08:16 PM
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The Final Approach

Thought I'd start a new thread that could be of benefit to some & no doubt cause anguish to others:-)
Having been in the toy plane game for over 45 years I've seen it all!:-)
YouTube these days provides the best sort of entertainment around I reckon & seeing as I have a slight interest in aviation I tend to watch the mishaps as they provide the best viewing pleasure, remember humans are very voyeuristic:-)

So to kick it off most poor landings of which there are many are due to one thing, well other than pilot inability & that's a poor approach meaning not stable.
You watch most approaches especially with flash looking toy planes that cost a mint the App is all over the place, rarely being stable for more than a few seconds.
Now this is attributable to many factors some listed here I believe.

The driver(pilot), the biggest factor, simply not knowing what to do.
Depth perception, one human trait that is very poor in all of us.
Balance, a LOT of planes are not well balanced & poorly set up especially if there is a large speed range.
Power & attitude, the two things mostly misunderstood even in full size aviation I find.
Control surface movements, expo etc (more of that poorly set up)
Model design meaning the strength built into it. I've seen large models looking amazing but still built with the mentality of balsa & glue of a 60 size toy plane! The U/C a critical area where this is prevalent!

They are just some of the issues toy plane drivers have:-)

To finish off this first post some model toy planes are stunning, the owners put a huge amount of effort in to make them scale with lots of deep pockets but simply should not be flying a high wing trainer!

Now some of you will get upset a bit at this thread but lets all learn something from others who have more experience & stories to tell:-)

CW
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Old Feb 23, 2015, 01:32 PM
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Another issue is recognition of limits. A pilot may have 100 flawless landings on model in calm winds, but may not have as much luck in higher winds. The maximum wind speed with vary, depending on the aircraft and the pilot's experience. Pilots need to make good judgment calls when deciding to fly in less that favorable conditions. I am currently repairing my Escapade MX, which was damaged when I tried to fly in winds that were faster than my reflexes.

As you said, boundaries are also an issue with pilots who build aircraft that they cannot handle. An Extra 300 is a great flying plane, once you have mastered a trainer and one or two entry level low-wing aerobatic planes. I cringe when people start talking about moving up to a ducted fan jet after they have mastered a trainer. Baby steps is the key!

You point about power and attitude is also very valid. Even some experienced pilots do not understand what happens when you get behind the power curve ("the area of reverse command.") Using elevator to control altitude is a good way to stall air aircraft on approach. This misunderstanding has caused countless incidents, in both full scale and model aviation. The flight school that trained me for my private pilot's license had a student who crashed a Cessna 150 on final approach (for those of you who are not familiar with the 150, many would consider it to be one of the easiest airplanes to fly, and land.). She came in too fast, and bounced on the runway. She did not touch the throttle, and corrected the bounce with up elevator to keep the nose up. She bounced one more time before she ran out of airspeed, and stalled. The main landing gear and the prop hit first, and hit hard. Both were destroyed. She was fortunately not injured, but the incident taught her to add throttle to keep the nose up when the aircraft is flying behind the power curve. Better yet, if you bounce like that, just punch the throttle to the firewall and go around for another approach.
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Old Feb 23, 2015, 09:33 PM
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The big boys talk of "Stable Approaches" and when an approach goes unstable you do not try to re-stabilize and continue to land, you apply power and go round and set up a new approach.

The older I get the more I try to get the plane in a stable glide path aligned with the runway with few small control movements. The more I practice this mental exercise the better my landings and I am repairing fewer planes.
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Old Feb 25, 2015, 07:21 PM
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2 things that were not mentioned rudder, and use of throttle for altitude control.
I know you've got to be trolling with the term toy planes.
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Old Feb 27, 2015, 10:23 PM
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there is an old book called Stick and Rudder--or something to that effect. The author correctly points out that the elevator controls speed and the throttle controls altitude. A concept that many don't grasp.

Difference between Men and boys is the price of our toys. I prefer to call them models myself I know I'm still a kid at heart, but can't bring myself to say that I play with toys.

regards,

Daniel
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Old Feb 28, 2015, 08:58 PM
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Oh I see a few replies. I thought no one was interested in learning

There's always been two schools of thought re power & attitude. For me it's thrust/throttle to control the speedo (like you do in yr car) & pitch to control where you want the toy plane to be ref to the ground, the other way around simply doesn't make sense as it has the airframe in a continuous state of unbalance. The full size machines the ones especially with auto-thrust use this technique so why not a toy plane?:-) I use the elevator/s to control where I want the Bus to be on the glide slope & the auto-thrust takes care of the speed, simple:-) The only time I use the pitch/elevator to control speed is when I want to bleed speed off by raising the nose or reducing the ROD when the engines are already at idle.
Someone said that rudder was not mentioned, well I did say 'some' of the issues so what's said here is not exhaustive:-):-)
The rudder is often not considered when flying a toy plane mainly 'cause that third axis is hard to judge from the ground.
It's more important on a multi toy plane:-)
All good fun especially to see a roller coeater final App & the driver is purely a spectator almost going along for the ride

CW
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Old Feb 28, 2015, 09:59 PM
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Someone told me to think about it like this. If you increase power and do nothing else you will tend to climb. If you decrease power and do nothing else you will descend. If you put your nose down and do nothing else you will speed up, if you raise your nose and don't do anything else you will slow down.

this is the book I was talking about

http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=C...l_83y1wpzt34_b
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Old Feb 28, 2015, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielphantom View Post
Someone told me to think about it like this. If you increase power and do nothing else you will tend to climb. If you decrease power and do nothing else you will descend. If you put your nose down and do nothing else you will speed up, if you raise your nose and don't do anything else you will slow down.

this is the book I was talking about

http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=C...l_83y1wpzt34_b
That's true what you say but that's a reaction to increased or decreased airflow over the wings, nothing else, still not a stable way of going about using the forces that act upon a plane to yr advantage:-)
But as they say each to their own & if that back to front way works for someone then stick with it:-)

CW
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Old Mar 01, 2015, 10:56 AM
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CW throttle does control altitude and elevator does control speed. I've taught many RC pilots to smooth out landings using throttle.
I am curious as to why you use the word toy planes instead model planes. Most RC pilots prefer the term model or RC aircraft.
By the way the use of rudder is important in cross wind landings and aerobatics. It's no harder to judge than any of the other control surfaces. The problem with rudder it's not taught or understood.
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Old Mar 02, 2015, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jetmech05 View Post
CW throttle does control altitude and elevator does control speed. I've taught many RC pilots to smooth out landings using throttle.
I am curious as to why you use the word toy planes instead model planes. Most RC pilots prefer the term model or RC aircraft.
By the way the use of rudder is important in cross wind landings and aerobatics. It's no harder to judge than any of the other control surfaces. The problem with rudder it's not taught or understood.
Mate I never said throttle doesn't control altitude & elevator controls speed (I've given an Eg of such) it's just that it's an odd way of controlling a toy plane that's all. If you can get the ROD correct then all one needs to do is to control the speed with power/thrust, using pitch to do same means it's not a constant, more unstable. If I want to reduce speed whilst on the ILS in the A320 I don't use elevator as it would destabilize the App, power is used, shame few understand this even with toy planes.
I see it all the time at model fields, the plane is up & down like a drunken wench as the driver is fiddling with the pitch having no idea what to do losing energy resulting in a stall due what you are saying (elevator for speed control). You can get away with that if it's a toy trainer but a toy jet with a high wing loading forget it, YouTube is full of spectacular crashes due poor pilot skills.

As I said above if it works for you (you as in anyone) then stick to it:-)

Toy planes is what they are to me (said with a bit of tongue in cheek also), I fly both, toys & full size from a few ounces to near 80Tonnes, both I treat the same, throttle for speed pitch for profile but the description (toys/full size) can't be in the same basket, well for me anyway:-)

Rudder is mainly misunderstood, never said don't use it.

CW:-)
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Old Mar 02, 2015, 08:22 AM
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An airbus driver. I've been flight crew on convairs, saberliners, and Boeing .
I now know why you call them toy planes. Although I can't agree with the term.
Good flying to ya Capt
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Old Mar 02, 2015, 09:05 AM
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CW have you ever read Fate is the Hunter by Earnest Gann?

I soloed back in 84, never pursued my license to my chagrin. I do enjoy flying models and reading the exploits of that guy who through all types of adversity made his way through a career of flying.

happy landings,

Daniel
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Old Mar 07, 2015, 08:44 AM
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Depth perception + Tree = epoxy required

Yesterday. eeek
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Old Mar 09, 2015, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielphantom View Post
there is an old book called Stick and Rudder--or something to that effect. The author correctly points out that the elevator controls speed and the throttle controls altitude. A concept that many don't grasp.

Difference between Men and boys is the price of our toys. I prefer to call them models myself I know I'm still a kid at heart, but can't bring myself to say that I play with toys.

regards,

Daniel
The book is indeed called Stick and Rudder. It has stood the test of time for more than 70 years. Many pilots still consider it as required reading.
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Old Mar 09, 2015, 10:11 PM
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Had a Fed say that to me, power is speed and pitch is altitude...I asked him how a sailplane can climb and got a look that was clearly saying

"You want to pass this ride or not?"

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