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Old Aug 28, 2012, 10:29 AM
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Yea my model doesn't have that round area intake.. At the above dimensions I have it scaled to, the inlet would have to be a knife edge to get 85% fsa. Currently at work ill get some pics up later. Have you got an airfoil in mind?
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 10:44 AM
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I have not even thought about it yet. Any thoughts what might work. I know the small wing tips like to stall. Wonder how much washout to use.
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 11:09 AM
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I'm almost positive this sort of bird would use a 6 digit mod like the f_22 but I can't find any profiles if it. A slimed down f-15 might work well.
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 11:53 AM
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I was just reading where Glass Air Allen the man who designed the big yf23 back in about 2001 and never got it to fly was saying something about using a six digit like you say. I guess everyone who has tryed to take it off a runway says it is very hard to get it to rotate it likes to stick to the ground. He also says there is no way to use the scale airfoil on a model. I know I want to be able to get the servo's in the wing with out blisters. I wonder if leading edge flaps would help to get it to lift off easier. I don't think Glass Air used them on his bird. I think the first attemps were severly under powered along with being tail heavy. Then he put more power to it and got it to fly but very unstable which lead me to believe it was still tail heavy. Now we know from others that it will fly but the CG is way forward. a chucky may be in order.
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 02:15 PM
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I found this on a site F22 NACA 64A005.92 root and NACA 64A004.92 Tip

64A005.92 and 64A004.29 (F-22)

F22 Airfoils - Sometimes, the thickness to chord ratio is not an exact integer in percent. For example, the F-22 uses a uncambered 64A section with 5.92 percent thickness at the root and 4.29 percent thickness at the tip. If it were 6 percent, we would write it as 64A006, but to make it 5.92 we write 64A005.92 for the designation. If there is a possibility of confusion, parentheses are sometimes employed, as in 65A(3.7)(11.32) where the design cl is 0.37 and the thickness to chord is 11.32 percent

64A005.92 and 64A004.29 (F-22)



F22 Airfoils - Sometimes, the thickness to chord ratio is not an exact integer in percent. For example, the F-22 uses a uncambered 64A section with 5.92 percent thickness at the root and 4.29 percent thickness at the tip. If it were 6 percent, we would write it as 64A006, but to make it 5.92 we write 64A005.92 for the designation. If there is a possibility of confusion, parentheses are sometimes employed, as in 65A(3.7)(11.32) where the design cl is 0.37 and the thickness to chord is 11.32 percent


NACA 64A005.92
First three characters: 64A series thickness
Fourth character: CL design=0.0 (uncambered)
Last five characters: 5.92 percent t/c

&NACA
name = 'NACA 64A005.92',
profile= '64A',
toc = .0592,
camber = '6M',
cl = 0.0,
dencode=2/

[ Examine output for this airfoil. Fine output. ]


NACA 64A004.29
First three characters: 64A series thickness
Fourth character: CL design=0.0 (uncambered)
Last five characters: 4.29 percent t/c

&NACA
name = 'NACA 64A004.29',
profile= '64A',
toc = .0429,
camber = '6M',
cl = 0.0,
dencode=2/


COORDINATES OF NACA AIRFOILS
Created by naca456, version 1.0 (4 January 2002) on 14:07 8Dec2009
Ralph L. Carmichael, Public Domain Aeronautical Software
NACA 64A005.92
Six-series profile, family= 64A t/c= 0.0592
Six-series mean line (modified), cl= 0.0000 (a=0.8 always for 6M)
SYMMETRICAL AIRFOIL DEFINITION
x y dy/dx
1 0.000000 0.000000**********
2 0.000200 0.001039 2.584791
3 0.000500 0.001638 1.619233
4 0.001000 0.002303 1.126466
5 0.001500 0.002805 0.905521
6 0.002000 0.003222 0.771981
7 0.005000 0.004950 0.451065
8 0.010000 0.006747 0.297989
9 0.015000 0.008069 0.238172
10 0.020000 0.009168 0.204673
11 0.030000 0.010995 0.164998
12 0.040000 0.012521 0.141642
13 0.050000 0.013854 0.125644
14 0.060000 0.015046 0.113739
15 0.080000 0.017138 0.096923
16 0.100000 0.018951 0.084637
17 0.120000 0.020531 0.073810
18 0.140000 0.021922 0.065470
19 0.160000 0.023159 0.058477
20 0.180000 0.024266 0.052109
21 0.200000 0.025250 0.046216
22 0.220000 0.026118 0.040750
23 0.240000 0.026879 0.035636
24 0.260000 0.027539 0.030722
25 0.280000 0.028104 0.025990
26 0.300000 0.028579 0.021119
27 0.320000 0.028965 0.016926
28 0.340000 0.029258 0.012392
29 0.360000 0.029464 0.008183
30 0.380000 0.029575 0.003343
31 0.400000 0.029578 -0.002607
32 0.420000 0.029457 -0.009041
33 0.440000 0.029212 -0.015192
34 0.460000 0.028859 -0.020105
35 0.480000 0.028410 -0.024924
36 0.500000 0.027871 -0.029068
37 0.520000 0.027250 -0.033110
38 0.540000 0.026549 -0.037024
39 0.560000 0.025779 -0.039992
40 0.580000 0.024946 -0.043258
41 0.600000 0.024051 -0.046321
42 0.620000 0.023100 -0.049076
43 0.640000 0.022093 -0.051461
44 0.660000 0.021036 -0.054142
45 0.680000 0.019932 -0.056860
46 0.700000 0.018786 -0.058418
47 0.720000 0.017607 -0.059707
48 0.740000 0.016399 -0.060675
49 0.760000 0.015174 -0.061792
50 0.780000 0.013933 -0.062129
51 0.800000 0.012683 -0.062413
52 0.820000 0.011430 -0.062933
53 0.840000 0.010177 -0.062449
54 0.860000 0.008929 -0.062502
55 0.880000 0.007686 -0.062395
56 0.900000 0.006429 -0.064136
57 0.920000 0.005135 -0.065052
58 0.940000 0.003853 -0.062109
59 0.960000 0.002683 -0.054266
60 0.970000 0.002160 -0.051036
61 0.980000 0.001655 -0.050465
62 0.990000 0.001116 -0.059728
63 0.995000 0.000778 -0.079570
64 1.000000 -0.000000 -2.315517
End of output for symmetrical airfoil

COORDINATES OF NACA AIRFOILS
Created by naca456, version 1.0 (4 January 2002) on 14:10 8Dec2009
Ralph L. Carmichael, Public Domain Aeronautical Software
NACA 64A004.29
Six-series profile, family= 64A t/c= 0.0429
Six-series mean line (modified), cl= 0.0000 (a=0.8 always for 6M)
SYMMETRICAL AIRFOIL DEFINITION
x y dy/dx
1 0.000000 0.000000**********
2 0.000200 0.000759 1.888130
3 0.000500 0.001196 1.181255
4 0.001000 0.001681 0.821542
5 0.001500 0.002047 0.660115
6 0.002000 0.002351 0.562445
7 0.005000 0.003609 0.328207
8 0.010000 0.004914 0.215670
9 0.015000 0.005869 0.172029
10 0.020000 0.006664 0.147745
11 0.030000 0.007982 0.119038
12 0.040000 0.009083 0.102266
13 0.050000 0.010045 0.090765
14 0.060000 0.010906 0.082183
15 0.080000 0.012416 0.069923
16 0.100000 0.013726 0.061185
17 0.120000 0.014868 0.053374
18 0.140000 0.015873 0.047323
19 0.160000 0.016768 0.042268
20 0.180000 0.017568 0.037701
21 0.200000 0.018280 0.033399
22 0.220000 0.018908 0.029531
23 0.240000 0.019459 0.025721
24 0.260000 0.019938 0.022173
25 0.280000 0.020348 0.018802
26 0.300000 0.020694 0.015308
27 0.320000 0.020974 0.012419
28 0.340000 0.021189 0.009172
29 0.360000 0.021340 0.006240
30 0.380000 0.021425 0.002735
31 0.400000 0.021435 -0.001540
32 0.420000 0.021356 -0.006286
33 0.440000 0.021189 -0.010597
34 0.460000 0.020941 -0.014155
35 0.480000 0.020624 -0.017406
36 0.500000 0.020241 -0.020636
37 0.520000 0.019799 -0.023684
38 0.540000 0.019299 -0.026564
39 0.560000 0.018745 -0.028802
40 0.580000 0.018147 -0.030971
41 0.600000 0.017504 -0.033279
42 0.620000 0.016819 -0.035224
43 0.640000 0.016093 -0.037176
44 0.660000 0.015331 -0.039105
45 0.680000 0.014534 -0.040706
46 0.700000 0.013704 -0.042456
47 0.720000 0.012848 -0.043225
48 0.740000 0.011971 -0.044134
49 0.760000 0.011081 -0.044901
50 0.780000 0.010177 -0.045261
51 0.800000 0.009266 -0.045511
52 0.820000 0.008352 -0.045698
53 0.840000 0.007437 -0.045857
54 0.860000 0.006527 -0.045826
55 0.880000 0.005618 -0.045475
56 0.900000 0.004702 -0.046583
57 0.920000 0.003758 -0.047533
58 0.940000 0.002817 -0.045688
59 0.960000 0.001955 -0.039934
60 0.970000 0.001570 -0.037455
61 0.980000 0.001201 -0.036847
62 0.990000 0.000808 -0.043386
63 0.995000 0.000563 -0.057588
64 1.000000 -0.000000 -1.471364
End of output for symmetrical airfoil
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Old Aug 29, 2012, 12:43 PM
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Airfoil selection

Those are some thin airfoils you have there. The tip needs washout or you will have slow speed stalls. Since it looks like a delta wing, maybe something with refex will work better. Something like a MH-60?
You can see in the file Naca 64a005 that if the airfoil was at 0 degrees incidence that there is zero lift. So the nose would have to be about 3.5 degrees to get this to rotate. Where as the MH-60 gets lift at zero incidence.
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Old Aug 29, 2012, 06:53 PM
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I don't know much about airfoils, I don't have any programs like you do. I have read that somewhere they were making the front gear longer to get it to rotate. I also read that being the bottom of the plane is wide and flat that that is like a lifting body. I would like to keep the shape of the top at the root scale as possible. I also have read the narrow wing out towards the tip makes it want to stall also. How much wash out would you suggest. I was thinking about 3 or 4 degree's from root to tip. Thanks for the PDF I was going to try and download some programs put my computer is a dinosaur and about full. So it would probably lock it up or make it near impossible to work. Did you make that airfoils with the compufoil program? How hard is that foil program to use for someone with no CAD experience. And did you have to buy it?
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Old Aug 29, 2012, 07:46 PM
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Generating airfoils I use Profili http://www.profili2.com/ and for designing wing I use Compufoil http://www.compufoil.com/index.shtml. Profili has more feature than compufoil and can generate plots for airfoils. As with all programs it takes time. You can downlaod 30 day trails on both programs, so try them out and see which one you like best.
The pdf file just shows you what the templates look like and can be resized once you figure the root length. Looking at the top view it is hard to figure where this should be.
The CG for the YF-23 looks to be near the root. This places the gear over 10" aft of CG which can be another problem with rotation.
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Old Aug 29, 2012, 08:54 PM
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Wow blows my mind how fast you guys knock this stuff out. I would be sitting there scratching my head trying to put a line on the paper. I have read that also on the gear it needs to be moved way foward. Im going to see what D Fast thinks or has when he gets the plane done in sections. Maybe a better airfoil is in order to make this plane get off the ground easier. Maybe a couple different sections of airfoil. Near the root use something that is thin that will flow into the scale lines to an extent, and has a bit of reflex and then use like the Mh foil to generate some lift to help get it off the ground, and keep it looking more scale on the wheels. Im all ears
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Old Aug 29, 2012, 09:03 PM
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Yes get more opinions on the setup. I think Air Sally build one and remember him saying that the CG is near the root. PM him.
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Old Aug 29, 2012, 09:16 PM
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I think it was his son CN who was messing around with it before. He did say it was forward. And the other person who did the big profile said the same and was going to post back but I shut the thread. Here is the photo the OP posted Im thinking the red line,but he said he would have to check maybe I will pm him or when I get the pdf I will build a chuck glider and mess around
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Old Aug 29, 2012, 09:30 PM
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Mac generator in Compufoil

Yes I know them both. I think CN said that also, will ask when I see him.
The attached file shows the total volume of the wing into the body for a scaled 72" long model. At 10% MAC shows CG near the root which is where the CG is on the other view. I'm using 10% thinking this is a delta wing.
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Old Aug 29, 2012, 11:12 PM
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Wing possibilities

Just throwing out some ideas. Are you going to have some incidence in the wing? Or is the planes angle of attack going to be positive? These three are at 1 degrees and shows lift.
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Old Aug 30, 2012, 03:01 AM
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Looks like there was a Easy built one of these http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1058244
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Old Aug 30, 2012, 07:30 AM
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sorry for my lack of any updates work has me slammed.
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