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Old Feb 22, 2013, 05:26 PM
Goooo!!!! Get to da choppa!!!!
United States, NC, Albemarle
Joined Jan 2013
505 Posts
Quote:
I am using the belt driven tail
My plan as well. Much simpler if you are gonna use a "traditional" 6CH radio setup.

Besides, no tail motors to burn out is a good thing!
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 06:08 PM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
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Originally Posted by Bnh105 View Post
What are you guys using for the tail? I'm considering doing this. Is it just a motor or dd tail on there?
FWIW, have one of each (all on 450 frames with BL main motor and F45 rotor head).
1 - Modded F45 Rx, ADH300XL main motor, Brushed tail
2 - 6ch Rx, Align 430X main motor, 3s battery, Belt tail
3 - 6ch Rx, 2211 Turnigy tail
- and also a pretty standard HK/Align CP 450.

Where I fly (a southern trades seaside area) the prevailing winds year round are gusty 10 to 20 knots - so (unless I want to get up at 5am!) have been concentrating most of my R&D into getting the best wind authority and easy recoverability from gusts.

On this basis, and in my own experience, they are ranked pretty well as above - with the CP sort of between 1 and 2. However, the best all rounder seems to be the FP belt tail (getting the most flight time!) - except in 20 knot + winds. Bear in mind, this is from the 'fun flying' pov, not looking for really challenging flying at the end of a day's work. Or repair bills.

I'm still waiting on feedback from some more experienced CP guys, to see if my ranking on the CP is due to my lack of CP skills, and if more practice would also give a 'fun flying' label to a 450 CP in a 20 knot wind. But the only competent local flyer I know says to get his tick of approval under these conditions would have to be flying his 550 (or bigger).

TL, DR? - Best (IME, so far) - 6ch Rx, FP 450 with belt tail. Thanks, Arrowshooter! (wasted weeks trying to get BL tail exactly right).
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Last edited by OldOz; Feb 22, 2013 at 06:24 PM.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 07:36 PM
Oh no!
Scarlet's Avatar
Wales(UK)
Joined Jul 2004
127 Posts
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Originally Posted by arrowshooter View Post
I believe that you can do that just by the settings on the Tx so that they stay at 5 deg. There is a guy on youtube who did it. Before I decided to do flybarless I thought about putting a locking screw on the pins that go through follower.
Yea that's the sort of thing I had in mind.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 07:43 PM
Brent 黑雁
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Canada, AB, Ponoka
Joined Jan 2012
1,772 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOz View Post
FWIW, have one of each (all on 450 frames with BL main motor and F45 rotor head).
1 - Modded F45 Rx, ADH300XL main motor, Brushed tail
2 - 6ch Rx, Align 430X main motor, 3s battery, Belt tail
3 - 6ch Rx, 2211 Turnigy tail
- and also a pretty standard HK/Align CP 450.

Where I fly (a southern trades seaside area) the prevailing winds year round are gusty 10 to 20 knots - so (unless I want to get up at 5am!) have been concentrating most of my R&D into getting the best wind authority and easy recoverability from gusts.

On this basis, and in my own experience, they are ranked pretty well as above - with the CP sort of between 1 and 2. However, the best all rounder seems to be the FP belt tail (getting the most flight time!) - except in 20 knot + winds. Bear in mind, this is from the 'fun flying' pov, not looking for really challenging flying at the end of a day's work. Or repair bills.

I'm still waiting on feedback from some more experienced CP guys, to see if my ranking on the CP is due to my lack of CP skills, and if more practice would also give a 'fun flying' label to a 450 CP in a 20 knot wind. But the only competent local flyer I know says to get his tick of approval under these conditions would have to be flying his 550 (or bigger).

TL, DR? - Best (IME, so far) - 6ch Rx, FP 450 with belt tail. Thanks, Arrowshooter! (wasted weeks trying to get BL tail exactly right).
I would have to agree with OldOz and Arrowshooter that the belt or shaft driven tail will always be better than the motor driven. I have 3 helis that are full collective pitch, a V120D02S that is shaft driven, a MasterCP and a V400D02 which are both motor driven tail. In any kind of breeze, the V120 tail holds better and is more stable in both directions. It also turns either way much better and it is much smaller than the other 2 and has a far greater power to weight ratio.
My MJX is still in testing, so I am undecided on the tail so far.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 07:50 PM
Oh no!
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Wales(UK)
Joined Jul 2004
127 Posts
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Originally Posted by OldOz View Post
Not quite sure what you mean by 'stock head' scarlet - if you mean (say) Align 450 CP set to 6-7 deg FP, problem is 1) the FB is at 90deg, and 2) the whole head assembly will suffer from the fragility of a standard FB head - hit anything but air, it'll break - and 3) IME, it handles crappier than either a CP or a 45 deg FP. I had high hopes, too!
But maybe I misunderstood your idea.

Edit - been a long day. Quote was meant to be Scarlet's original. My bad!
I don't fully understand the 90deg/45deg flybar thing.Why does, say, my MJX F-45 have a 45deg flybar and not a flybar at 90deg?I understand what you are saying about the fragility aspect.When you say it handles crappier,do I take it to mean you've actually had a go at this,or have you just seen a video.I can,on a calm day,hover my F-45 30 feet up in the air and take my hands off the controls for what seems like ages,and it hardly moves from the spot.This would be nice to achieve with a 450 clone or suchlike.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 08:28 PM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
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Originally Posted by Scarlet View Post
I don't fully understand the 90deg/45deg flybar thing.Why does, say, my MJX F-45 have a 45deg flybar and not a flybar at 90deg?I understand what you are saying about the fragility aspect.When you say it handles crappier,do I take it to mean you've actually had a go at this,or have you just seen a video.I can,on a calm day,hover my F-45 30 feet up in the air and take my hands off the controls for what seems like ages,and it hardly moves from the spot.This would be nice to achieve with a 450 clone or suchlike.
Scarlet -
90 deg flybar and 45 deg flybar are different animals altogether. BThirsk knows the technicalities far better than I, but IME the 45's handle more forgivingly but with less precision.
Yes, have personally flown a 450CP with pitch set to 6, 6, 6, 6, 6 : (and seven deg also). the handling seemed a bit easier but pretty mushy. Others have commented similarly on helifreak. To my mind, you lose all the advantages of CP, but gain few of the FP: however, YMMV of course with different CPs (and pilots!).
Any FB CP I have flown WILL require constant attention, regardless of setup. All my FP 450s will hover hands off (for a reasonable while, anyway). And go like a bat out of hell when it's needed .
Hope this helps
John.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 08:28 PM
Cranky old fart
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Germantown, WI.
Joined Oct 2007
21,486 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet View Post
I don't fully understand the 90deg/45deg flybar thing.Why does, say, my MJX F-45 have a 45deg flybar and not a flybar at 90deg?I understand what you are saying about the fragility aspect.When you say it handles crappier,do I take it to mean you've actually had a go at this,or have you just seen a video.I can,on a calm day,hover my F-45 30 feet up in the air and take my hands off the controls for what seems like ages,and it hardly moves from the spot.This would be nice to achieve with a 450 clone or suchlike.
A 45° flybar head with Bell linkage is highly stabilized and head movement is considerably reduced. A 90° flybar does not work well with Bell linkage, movement damping is very uneven. A 90° flybar is typically used with Hiller linkage or Bell-Hiller linkage. Neither of these configurations provides movement reduction, damping or stabilizing. If you take your hands off the sticks for 2 seconds, you will crash.

Locking the pitch on a conventional CP head accomplishes nothing, other than rob it of a lot of stability and wind handling capability. You still have the same head that is subject to the same damage potential. Likewise, there is no advantage to making a flybarless CP head act as FP, for the same reasons.
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Last edited by Balr14; Feb 22, 2013 at 11:07 PM.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 08:42 PM
Registered User
United States, IL, St Charles
Joined Jan 2013
671 Posts
does anyone want to sell one of these bad boys?
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:35 AM
Registered User
United States, CA, Modesto
Joined Aug 2012
828 Posts
Someone on another thread asked for a more detail parts list so here it is. I have purchased everything off eBay except for the Transmitter which I got from Wow. I don’t think I forgot anything.

FBL FP 450 Parts List:
-Trex 450 Clone kit
Doesn’t have to be a clone either.
-Align DFC Flybarless head assembly
On my first conversion I used the Hobbymate DFC Clone but I prefer the Align now as I have explained previously. There are others like Tarot that should work but they have the swashplate followers. These are probably stronger units then the DFC, but might not give you enough room for the spacers to allow complete swash movement. The DFC head conversions come with DFC Main Shafts that will not work on the 450SEV2. The Hobbymate comes with Thrust Bearings and most Align DFC conversion kits do not. Be sure you know what you are buying.
-Align DFC Feathering shaft H45021A
-90 degree swash plate
I just found out that if you are crafty enough, you can convert a 120 degree swash to 90.
-2 - Align 1-way Bearing shafts AGNH1130
This is the sleeve in the main gear’s 1-way bearing and is used to make the swash spacers. I cut the lower spacer at 8mm and the upper one is 12mm and used blade grip thrust bearing spacers to take up the slack on the top swash spacer to get the 5 degree pitch. This way the length of the top spacer does not have to be exact and I have to option to go to 6 or 7 degrees pitch.
-Extra Main Shaft adjustable collar.
This is used below the bottom swash spacer for adjustment. You will need to grind flat spots on the main shaft for the grub screws.
-Longer aileron servo arm
-Suitable servo linkages

The Electronics that I am using:

-Walkera 2403 Tx
-Walkera 2437V Rx w/3-axis gyro
-Tail Servo Walkera and Hobby King digitals
-Hobbymate 3800kv motor w/13T pinion
-Hobbywing Pentium 40A ESC
-Tower Pro cyclic servos (current)
-ZOP Power 2s and 3s lipos
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:47 AM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
Or, for a much more basic upgrade to 450 FP, see my post 48 on this thread. I'm sure it's not as good, but does the job. A vast improvement on the vanilla F45, in any event (if you want to go to 450 size).
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 01:05 AM
Sir Crashalot
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Murray, KY
Joined Mar 2007
224 Posts
Very cool.. Very interested.. And very subscribed.

Watching.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 01:37 AM
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Joined Dec 2012
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Hi, its been awhile since my last post here, trying to read backwards all the posts, LOL.

Anyway, has somebody already came up with the perfect if not the best setup for a 450 FP?

Can someone please lead me there as i also consider doing this.

Thanks.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 04:53 AM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolivy View Post
Hi, its been awhile since my last post here, trying to read backwards all the posts, LOL.

Anyway, has somebody already came up with the perfect if not the best setup for a 450 FP?

Can someone please lead me there as i also consider doing this.

Thanks.
Arrowshooter and I have been working on FP450s for quite a while now, and I'd think he'd agree with me that there is NO one correct answer to this question!

You can go all the way from my 'minimal' approach (post 48) to his fully BL (and FBL) solution: and all the steps along the way, each of which might be the best for some pilots/flying environments. By and large, it all depends on what you were wanting it for, and what your flying environment was. Even then, your needs could change with your skill level.

But - as I said in an earlier post - probably IMO the 'best' compromise solution is a F45 head, a 6ch Tx/Rx, a HK (or other) FB clone frame, and a belt tail. Seems pretty bombproof, and flies well in a big backyard or small park. And could be easily upgraded to CP if you decided later to go down that road.

If you've a much bigger area, Arrow's FBL solution just above would have to be a winner. Think all helis will be FBL in a couple of years, anyway.
Cheers
John
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 05:32 AM
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Joined Dec 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOz View Post
Arrowshooter and I have been working on FP450s for quite a while now, and I'd think he'd agree with me that there is NO one correct answer to this question!

You can go all the way from my 'minimal' approach (post 48) to his fully BL (and FBL) solution: and all the steps along the way, each of which might be the best for some pilots/flying environments. By and large, it all depends on what you were wanting it for, and what your flying environment was. Even then, your needs could change with your skill level.

But - as I said in an earlier post - probably IMO the 'best' compromise solution is a F45 head, a 6ch Tx/Rx, a HK (or other) FB clone frame, and a belt tail. Seems pretty bombproof, and flies well in a big backyard or small park. And could be easily upgraded to CP if you decided later to go down that road.

If you've a much bigger area, Arrow's FBL solution just above would have to be a winner. Think all helis will be FBL in a couple of years, anyway.
Cheers
John

Thanks, a f45 head looks very easy to do, all i am worried is how easy/hard for the f45 head assembly to be mounted on say example hk450 GT (i thinks its belt driven).
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 05:56 AM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolivy View Post
Thanks, a f45 head looks very easy to do, all i am worried is how easy/hard for the f45 head assembly to be mounted on say example hk450 GT (i thinks its belt driven).
The HK I linked is probably the best value for money, in my opinion. But almost any clone will do.
There are only three basic problems with mounting the F45 head on an Align 450 compatible body.
1) The shaft adaptor. The standard Align main shaft is 5mm: the F45 is 6mm. You'll need an appropriate sleeve approx 4cm long
2) The antirotation bracket. Again, the one I linked works well (anchored with epoxy glue and hot glue).
3) IF using F45 Rx/Tx and servos: a) The linkages have to be extended (but plenty of bits in the clone kits), and b) the ali/roll servo will be reversed in function, when mounted in the only sensible place. This is no biggie, you can reverse 2 wires in the Tx: or use an Align servo, which is reversed anyway.
A minor problem also to mount the tail rotor - just use about 3 cm of the existing boom wrapped in tape inserted into the (shortened) 450 boom.

If using a 6ch Rx/Tx, can reverse in the Tx, so np there: and use the tail rotor that came with the kit. Have to disable swash mixing, of course.

It's not a trivial project, but well documented now. There's also pictures of various 450 conversions through this thread, and also on the main F45 thread.
Cheers
John.
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