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Old Feb 26, 2013, 07:42 PM
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Air, gas or kero and integrated turbines

I will be buying my first turbine shortly and was curious what your thoughts are on saving some $ on an air or gas start as opposed to the kero start. Does the cost and pain of lugging around extra equipment make it more cost effective to go kero right off the start?

How about the integrated units like the VT80, king tech 80g or even the jetcat 90rxi?

Joe
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 12:24 AM
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You most definitely want to go with a full auto start and the ones you name are good choices.
Air start is gone and propane start is on the way out also, All of the new turbines introduced
in the last year or so have been kero start.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:26 AM
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If buying a second hand unit you might choose airstart or gas, but if buying a new one there not much to save. If looking at the K80, add up to a K100!! You will soon regret if you didn't. Also you will soon find out that the engine is the cheapest part of jet flying ;-)
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 08:42 AM
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Yeah, my intention is to buy used, built planes. I just don't have time to put together a 40 hour ARF. That said, I'd love an SM MB339... I'm leaning towards the 90rxi. Seems a good price for a 23 lb turbine. Plus the install looks painfully easy.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 08:43 AM
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There is a give and take on everything.

USED: Air starts can be had cheap, and will still be reliable. But, may or may not have a warranty.

NEW: any option you like, but 2x the price.

AIR START: not really an option anymore for a new engine.

GAS/PROPNE START: this is a misnomer for the new guys. it actually uses an electric motor for starting. the gas is for pre-heat. Personally... I like this the best. If there is an issue on start up... you are less likely to have a wet or hot start. Not only are hot starts potentially dangerous... but it VERY bad for the engine, and rear bearing.

KERO START: Same thing... it uses an electric motor for starting. The Kero start uses a burner to ignite the kero for pre-heat. This is easier when everything works right... BUT... you need a bigger battery on board (= more flying weight) to work the system. If you have a leak in a valve... or if your igniter doesn't get up to temp... then you could pump raw Kero into the model... turning it into a fire ball.

I think it's great... but I've seen too many failures that have needed a fire extinguisher to take care of. If you get a miss-start on propane... you just turn it off, and try again.


ALL UNDER THE HOOD: This makes the install VERY easy. BUT... any issues... and you have to send the engine back to the factory to be serviced. In a conventional install... if you have a bad plug, bad pump, or valves... you can fix it yourself for a fraction of the price.


If you have the cash for a new engine... just pick one... and enjoy. All the "Real" brands are good, and will serve you well.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 08:54 AM
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Here's an example. One is a "Air start" engine... and the other is an "Auto Start" engine. Both need propane for pre-heat.

I personally don't have any Kero-start engines. (yet) Once they become more reliable... I probably will. They are getting close... but I don't know if they will overcome the problem with needing a big battery.


manual start of a turbine engine (5 min 17 sec)



Wren 44 + CMP T-45 test run (2 min 52 sec)
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 09:40 AM
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Doc, I've seen your videos. Very nice. Guess the leaf blower only works with an open turbine or can you rig something to get a start without the scuba tank?
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 10:58 AM
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It's easier if you have an open engine. But... as long as you can get to the engine... it will work. So... oversized intake ducts, or a top hatch will also work. (with a tube on the blower)
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 02:08 PM
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I'm getting ready to pick up an new, already built Cermark MB339 RTF except turbine. I know many of those motors are too powerful for that plane but still may be able to use.
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Old Feb 28, 2013, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPHen View Post
Yeah, my intention is to buy used, built planes. I just don't have time to put together a 40 hour ARF.
Even if buying a 100% RTF plane you will spend atleast the 40 hours checking the installation, redoing misstakes, etc. Specially if aiming for the lower price ranges. Flying jets don't make you a better craftsman and you still really need to go through the setup. It's pretty common to find solutions in a jet worthy a 64mm EDF foamy. I would never take those chanses as it's alot of money flying around. People seem to love extension cords and small 2-56 clevises for example, then adjusting the throws in the Tx by reducing the travel adjust
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Old Feb 28, 2013, 07:19 AM
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Get the K100g. Great turbine for the money. Jetcat 90 Rxi is more expensive and not many have really tried it out. Not to mention it is a p80 size turbine turned up to higher rpm.
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Old Feb 28, 2013, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txshan130 View Post
Get the K100g. Great turbine for the money. Jetcat 90 Rxi is more expensive and not many have really tried it out. Not to mention it is a p80 size turbine turned up to higher rpm.
Also if you like P180RX size and weight(!)
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Old Feb 28, 2013, 07:57 AM
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I did notice how heavy it was. Thanks all.
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Old Feb 28, 2013, 08:45 AM
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I also noticed you can get the Wren 80 for only ~$1500 now days.

http://www.wrenturbines.co.uk/engine...ren-80-jubilee
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Old Feb 28, 2013, 08:54 AM
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WrenUSA has them for $1950. If it was $1500, I'd be all over it.
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