HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Oct 27, 2009, 08:33 PM
Das_Bruce
BGThomas's Avatar
Aurora CO
Joined Dec 2008
193 Posts
Discussion
We need your input

First, I can't imagine why a mod would object to this thread, but just in case, just say so and we'll take this elsewhere.

As part of an effort to develop training and certification for Regatta judges, SSMA needs your input. On the water events are already well documented in our Regatta Handbook. Those of you who have judged models out of the water in whatever venue, and whether or not you are a SSMA member, we need your input. I consider most of you to be master modelers, many as world class modelers. We want to know what you consider to be core benchmarks for recognizing superior craftsmanship. This will be for static and running models. Standards are necessary for judges to be fair. Will you help?

Bruce
BGThomas is offline Find More Posts by BGThomas
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Oct 27, 2009, 09:01 PM
Sea Dragon-Lover
Umi_Ryuzuki's Avatar
PDX, OR
Joined Dec 2002
10,379 Posts
Corners and edges...

What does your manual say?
Umi_Ryuzuki is offline Find More Posts by Umi_Ryuzuki
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 2009, 09:25 PM
Das_Bruce
BGThomas's Avatar
Aurora CO
Joined Dec 2008
193 Posts
Its quite specific. That isn't the information I'm looking for. I want to know what should be, and I'm trying not to bias replies based on the Handbook. I used to dislike the "rivet counters" and I wasn't alone. I'm a little more of a stickler for detail now, and I want to know what you guys think.

How do we judge a Springer? Against other workboats?
BGThomas is offline Find More Posts by BGThomas
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 2009, 09:54 PM
In The Sorrano Triangle
BOZINATOR's Avatar
El Dorado Hills, Calif
Joined Mar 2005
1,023 Posts
Don't be rude....dude. You just burned your bridge by insulting one of the best sources you could have. I don't think you will get what you are looking for here...we don't need or want your attitude. Now go away

jim
BOZINATOR is offline Find More Posts by BOZINATOR
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 2009, 10:17 PM
Old wreck in Milwaukee
Prins Willem's Avatar
United States, WI, West Allis
Joined May 2007
3,777 Posts
Talk to Kurt Van Dahm. He ramrods the Wisconsin Maritime Museum Model Contest. They seem to get it right more often than wrong. Judging is very subjective even with rules handed down from Mt Sinai.
Prins Willem is offline Find More Posts by Prins Willem
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 2009, 10:21 PM
Kurt Greiner
seaphoto's Avatar
USA, CA, Grass Valley
Joined Sep 2005
492 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGThomas

How do we judge a Springer? Against other workboats?
Hard to judge fidelity to scale of something that is freelance. But since you are, by definition, a Scale Ship association, you should either have a non scale category, or penalize models that are not, well, models of something.

It depends on the goal of the event. If it is to promote the operation of radio control boats, and you want to encourage maximum participation, you could have all sort of categories, even pre-builts and ARF's. With enough classes, you can accommodate everyone. Of course, that will dilute your core mission, the promotion of scale modeling. Those kind of judgments are really up to your organization.

If you are serious about running scale events, check out NAVIGA or some of the UK events for more ideas. Those contests are not as inclusive, but serve to promote the highest possible standard of craftsmanship.

It all boils down to what you want - you will not please everyone.

Kurt
seaphoto is offline Find More Posts by seaphoto
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 2009, 11:06 PM
USA'd ex Brit
toesup's Avatar
Back.. In California
Joined Aug 2006
5,780 Posts
If the model is supposed to have rivets (as defined by 'scale') then it needs to have them all...

If the model is not supposed to have rivets (as defined by 'stand off scale) then its just that, a representation of a full size boat

If the model is a Springer, then its just down to workmanship.... and the builders / judges interpretation of 'A subject'..
toesup is offline Find More Posts by toesup
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 2009, 11:38 PM
Das_Bruce
BGThomas's Avatar
Aurora CO
Joined Dec 2008
193 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by toesup
If the model is supposed to have rivets (as defined by 'scale') then it needs to have them all...

If the model is not supposed to have rivets (as defined by 'stand off scale) then its just that, a representation of a full size boat

If the model is a Springer, then its just down to workmanship.... and the builders / judges interpretation of 'A subject'..
I certainly hope I haven't actually offended anyone with my questions. And Jim, I'm personally fascinated by the creative examples of what I've seen builders do with Springer hulls. I've read that thread twice, printed all the plans I could find. I think they deserve their own class with more than one subclass. That's why I used the example.

Toes, I agree. The scale USS Monitor better have a BUNCH of visible rivets as do all early steel hull ships. I should be able to see visible bands of armor on the hull of most battleships.

The SSMA Handbook is very clear of WHAT should be judged, not so much on how, except that the judge should already have been there and got the tee shirt.
BGThomas is offline Find More Posts by BGThomas
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28, 2009, 06:43 AM
Retired for now
Bonita Springs,Fl.
Joined Sep 2007
8,697 Posts
I think the whole thing should start with age. A 15 year old kid shouldn't have to be judged against a 50 year old with lots of experience. Then I'd separate civilian from military and then have catagories of length. Next would come subcats of type of boat and then scale and detail. All models are judged and winners then combined and eliminated to get best of category and then best of show. Sort of a progressive elimination to get the first prizes and then the top model of the show. Also EVERY entrant gets something to take home for his or her efforts. Pete
norgale is offline Find More Posts by norgale
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28, 2009, 09:03 AM
"day ain't over yet-"
der kapitan's Avatar
Western N.Y. winemaking country
Joined Jun 2005
9,759 Posts
Back in the mid/late 1980's, there was a model boat show held at the museum in Clayton, N.Y. that hosted all kinds of models, from stick & string to subs, both static and R/C.

The judges were selected from the attendees, who had a wide range of talents, considering the variety of models on display.

They would go around, examine the displays, write down their decisions, and the winners selected based on workmanship, finish, scale fidelity and eye appeal.

Interestingly, these judges, all of different interests, would invariably select the SAME models---.

If it's good, it's good---.
der kapitan is offline Find More Posts by der kapitan
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28, 2009, 09:23 AM
Big Boats Rule!
boater_dave's Avatar
Wisconsin
Joined Jun 2007
2,006 Posts
Didn't we just have this conversation? I swear that I remember talking about this very subject not long ago.
Anyway, my two cents...

Craftmanship - how well something is built should count for something. A judge should understand how hard it is to do make what you see on display. And the opposite is true as well. Poor craftmanship should be cause for low marks.

Scale - scale details make a model. A judge should be familiar with the subject being judged. I would think that overall scale-like appearance would get high marks.

Presentation - how well is the model displayed and documented. The best looking model resting on the top of a carboard box looses something.

Now for the disclaimers...

This is tricky stuff. Who can judge something to a high level of scale detail if they themselves don't know the subject? My example. At a local model contest, I overheard two judges talking about a tiny detail on the flight deck of a WWII flat top. The model was stunning. I asked if they knew what direction the propellors should be turning. Blank stares. The model had the inboard pair and the outboard pair turning in opposite directions. If you're going to count rivets should you also count the inches? Length, thickness of splinter shields on deck guns and color correctness?
Construction is another thing. We had a guy in our club that built fantastic models. All scratch built from wood and brass. Very scale. But he bright finished everything. Now I am no expert, but I would believe that an old wood tug had paint on the outside, not varnish. But the craftmanship is outstanding. How would you grade this? Do you give a guy higher or lower points for scratch building versus purchasing items and attaching them? The same contest had a round table discussion about the use of fiberglass hulls. The outcome, I believe, was that if you use a fg hull it will be considered a kit build. Even if you make your own plug and pull your own hull. Is that right?
My opinion is that models have come so far that the only thing left to break a tie is the minutia. And maybe that's a good thing. If you want a true contest, pick only one subject. Everybody build this boat in this scale at this time and see what shows up.


Dave
attached photos blatenly copied from http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gall...x-gallery.html
boater_dave is online now Find More Posts by boater_dave
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28, 2009, 01:10 PM
Kurt Greiner
seaphoto's Avatar
USA, CA, Grass Valley
Joined Sep 2005
492 Posts
It is a good idea to provide a binder with documentation if your goal is to win contests.

Addressing some of the points that Dave brought up, here is my take:

Thickness of gun shields and so forth - yes - that is scale fidelity.

Color - somewhat, but there is a lot of controversy on that topic, and it is hard to prove your are correct for a variety of reasons. Blue Arizona, anyone?

The varnished tug? Penalized, for lack of scale fidelity. You can build a model ship like a Faberge Egg, with gold and silver, heck even jewels. It would be beautiful, but should it win a model contest?

Fiberglass hull - trickier, but if you make the plug yourself, it should be considered scratch built. If Der Kapitan enters a model in a contest using one of his products, that is the way I would judge it. If one of his customers entered the same contest, I would rate the model as a semi-kit. One component of judging should be the amount of work to make the model - building a Springer from scratch is less involved than constructing a World War II battleship using a fiberglass hull.

I would disagree that in most cases judging comes down to minor points. In the contests I judged over the years, usually one or two models stood out from the pack. Many fell short on the most basic points - paint work, poor joints (particularly inside corners) mast symmetry, non-scale running gear; the list can go on.

Here is a question though - we should penalize models built using fiberglass hulls, but what if someone buys a completed, albeit scratch built, model from another builder?

Kurt
seaphoto is offline Find More Posts by seaphoto
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28, 2009, 01:38 PM
Registered User
tweety777's Avatar
Vlaardingen, The Netherlands
Joined Nov 2008
1,346 Posts
I think the scale itself is also very important.
It is much harder to make all the parts in scale 1:200 then it is in scale 1:75.
Therefore a model in scale 1:200 needs fewer details to get the same score as a model in scale 1:75.
I think the scale is more important then length, if for example a model of a ULCC in scale 1:200 would be in contest with my Well Enhancer is scale 1:75 i would have it much easier making all the details, and making them precisely the right size then the builder of that ULCC, while the models have a difference in length of less then a metre.

Greetings Josse
tweety777 is offline Find More Posts by tweety777
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28, 2009, 02:00 PM
Das_Bruce
BGThomas's Avatar
Aurora CO
Joined Dec 2008
193 Posts
The SSMA handbook addresses this.

Class A: from primary materials. Some pre-manufactured fittings are permitted
Class B: Pre-manufactured components. Hull, major superstructure components and fittings are pre-manufactured.
Class C: modified kit. Modified to show the vessel in some configuration other than supplied by the kit.
Class D Kit.
Class E Exhibition. Model assembled by a person other than the one presenting it for show. Class E is not considered for construction evaluation.

Penalized? Not exactly.
BGThomas is offline Find More Posts by BGThomas
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28, 2009, 02:00 PM
Big Boats Rule!
boater_dave's Avatar
Wisconsin
Joined Jun 2007
2,006 Posts
My reference to length was meant as it scaled to the prototype. Plastic models are notorious for being the wrong length, or having the wrong shape. This may be requirements of the molding process or just inaccuracies from the original concept (or just laziness). Measure the length of the model and check it against the prototype.
Seaphoto, I agree that color can get complicated. I guess I was thinking along the lines of making sure that this ship had this camo during the period that is being referenced. In your experience, how would you rate the two models that stood out from each other?

Dave

BGThomas - Can you compete in class A with a glass hull you made yourself?
boater_dave is online now Find More Posts by boater_dave
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Call for all Tiny-X pics!!! Collage Time! doppler Parkflyers 66 Mar 03, 2003 09:49 PM
Who to call for hacker repairs. kaboom Power Systems 2 Jul 22, 2002 01:22 PM
Building from scratch - Call for resources dmac Foamies (Kits) 2 Jun 06, 2002 12:29 PM
Open call for Scale Modeling columnist... dave_lilley Scale Kit/Scratch Built 6 Apr 09, 2002 11:14 PM
Last call for aussie lithiums!!! aussie slowman Parkflyers 4 Dec 16, 2001 02:14 AM