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Old Dec 17, 2002, 08:48 PM
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Uvalde, TX
Joined Sep 2002
105 Posts
Brushless E-Raider recommendations

Question for you motor gurus...
After long contemplation, I've decided my next plane is going to be Wingwarrior's electric Raider (http://www.wingwarrior.com/web/eRaider.html).
Everyday I go outside and see my flag weathervaning in the constant breeze here in Texas. I need something that can handle the wind, and something that can kind of thermal but isn't quite as sedate and remote-flying as a true sailplane (which are what I'm most familiar with).

I'm prepared to spend the $ for a good brushless system for this bird. The manufacturer recommends a 480 motor. I want something that will give the plane some reasonable zip - I'm not striving for unlimited vertical, just something fun to fly but with decent duration so I can take it up and thermal it too.

I would love to hear some recommendations from folks here. The plane comes with a 480 size mount so I would like to have a drop-in 480 brushless replacement. What would your prop, battery and motor selection be?

Another important question: Since I'm not going to use my wing for combat, is all the tape necessary? I was hoping to just ultracote it and save weight.

I realize you guys get these requests all the time and are probably tired of them, but I don't know where else to go for good advice. This stuff gets expensive and I'm basing my purchase on your recommendations.

Thanks for your help.

Houdini
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Old Dec 17, 2002, 10:58 PM
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Huntington Beach, California, United States
Joined Oct 2001
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Houdini,

I have an eRaider version that is built for 05 can size. When you order write a note in the check out screen which version you want or order a MaxRaider from:

http://hobbypeople.net/gallery/247005.asp

Thanks
Tom
WingWarrior.com
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Old Dec 17, 2002, 11:38 PM
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San Diego Lindberg, California, United States
Joined Jan 2002
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go for a big motor !!!

I built a Raider from cores into an E Raider. I don't remember my AUW but it was so underpowered with a S400 on 8 cells The wind just pushed it around. I put a 13 turn double 540 car motor with 8 or 7 CP2400 cells. It rocked. I could fly knife edge for a full 360 degrees. It was awesome, however, the power off glide was mighty fast since it was carrying so much weight. Brushes wore too fast, same with the comm. I found that two cheapy long can 400's from Hobby People worked fine using two small props. Since the two 400's spinning 6 x 2 or 6 x 3 props didn't suck as much juice I could use smaller cells, like 1100 mAH cells. The plane was still good but the lighter weight made IMO a better balance. Also I think the effect of two small props having more area than the single 6 x 3 or 6 x 4 on the 540 motor, was like spinning a larger prop on a gear box, so the plane pulled harder at slow speed, but did not continue to accelerate. The sound of two motors winding out is cool.
I 've since then retired the E Raider, but I have an E Slayer from cores, 30 oz AUW with a Mega 16-15-4 on 8 1100 mAH cells. I think this is a golden combination, good time and good power. I am sure that many would go for a 3 turn, but I am happy with the 4 turn as my cheapy "AA" type nicads still give a good ride, ie 4 minutes WOT.Perhaps a 3 turn on CP1300 or 1700's would be the killer machine. If it is windy where you are, the heavier/and more powerful combination might be better. ie you could fly regardless of the wind. However, battery life is the comprimise. The light machine however, has less kinetic energy, so it won't handle the wind, but you will have less damage upon impact !! EP
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 08:53 AM
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A Hacker B20 18L with the Maxon 4:1 gearbox, a pair of Kokam LiPoly 3270s and an APC 13 X 8E prop would be a brisk flyer for 45 minutes with power on - longer if you cut back to 10% or so while thermalling.

Two possible problems - the wingloading of that settup is very low, and would be a handful in winds above 10 MPH, and the Hacker won't drop right into the s480's place. But the buildup shouldn't be difficult.

That combo would certainly buzz upstairs and thermal, though!

- Jube
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 08:57 AM
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Uvalde, TX
Joined Sep 2002
105 Posts
Thanks for the replies!

I'm still a bit confused on motor selection, though. Wingmaster said he offered an E-Raider designed for 05 motors. Is this the same thing as an S400 motor? The reason I ask is because I would like to go with a Mega motor which is the same size as an S400 so it would be a drop-in replacement.

Now, S400 vs S480. Do these motors have the same dimensions? Epkoncept, you said you used a Mega 16/15/4 in your E-Slayer, which is designed for a S480 motor. This leads me to believe that the Mega 16 series are drop-ins for both S400 and S480 applications. Or am I mistaken and there's a larger drop-in Mega for S480 applications?

Finally, with Epkoncept's set-up with the Mega 16/15/4, which prop and ESC are you using? What betteries would you recommend that can be field-charged rather quickly? I have 2 Sanyo 8 cell N-500A packs. Are they worth using?

Thanks for your help.

Houdini
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 09:01 AM
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Uvalde, TX
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Jube, that sounds awesome!!!

But I think the biggest problem would be that big prop used with the gearbox. It would require some serious trimming to fit a 13" prop on the back of this wing. Is there a direct-drive set-up with a smaller prop that would work better?
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 09:12 AM
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"Wingmaster said he offered an E-Raider designed for 05 motors. Is this the same thing as an S400 motor?"

No - that's an Astroflight brushless - a bit heavier and more powerful than the Hacker I recommended, and a good choice - especially since you wouldn't have to do any motor mounting modification, as WW offers the Raider prepared for it.

You'll probably do better for your purposes with a gearbox on the 05 - Astro offers good ones, in several ratios.

You got the MotoCalc computer program? It can help you make comparisons.

- Jube
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 09:33 AM
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Uvalde, TX
Joined Sep 2002
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Jube

Thanks for your help. It's easy to get distracted with this brushless stuff and not stay focused on what's practical. The Asto brushless 05 sounds like it would be perfect - it's a drop-in, it's powerful and the weight "penalty" can be considered ballast for wind penetration.

I don't have motocalc. I've seen others post their motocalc results and I don't know how to interpret the data - I'm still unlearning glow and sailplanes right now and am at the bottom of the electric learning curve here

With the Astro, I think it would be best to go direct drive because the Raider's prop cut-out is rather small. Maybe I'm mistaken again? I haven't read of anybody doing major surgery on their wing yet to accomodate a larger, gear-driven prop.
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 09:34 AM
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San Diego Lindberg, California, United States
Joined Jan 2002
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houdini

houdini

As far as measurements down to a mm accuracy, the Speed 400, long can 400, 480, 400BB, 480BB and the Mega ACn16/15/xx all have the same OD, but the lengths are different. I believe that the 480bb and long can 400's are the longest. The

On my ACn16/15/4 I like a 6 x 3 either a Graupner folder or a non-folding APC or MAS. I'm not fussy.The APC's seems a little brittle.Even with a 6 " prop, it is easy to snap a prop, or bend a motor shaft in a landing onto a hard surface. I use a Jeti 30A conroller for the Mega. For the 480BB I used Wattage IC-380AS or 30A controllers, but they seem to burn out after a few months of use. I measured the static draw of my 480BB on a 6 x 3 prop and it was 22A on the 1100 mAH 8 cell pack. The mega draws less. I am sorry that I don't have current draw figures for the Mega 4 turn.It is much less as I get a few minutes more flying time than the 480BB ?
EP
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 09:39 AM
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"I think the biggest problem would be that big prop used with the gearbox. It would require some serious trimming to fit a 13" prop on the back of this wing. Is there a direct-drive set-up with a smaller prop that would work better?'

The Maxon gearbox sets the prop pretty far aft. Here's the way I mounted the power system combo:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&threadid=69720

I really think you're going to be better off with a gearbox.
But, in your situation, I believe I'd go with a Raider set up for the Astro 05, with the 05 and an Astro gearbox.

- Jube
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 09:44 AM
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Uvalde, TX
Joined Sep 2002
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Jube

That link isn't working. Do you have an Astro on a wing too?

Epkoncept: Thanks for the motor information. The raider uses a 480 sized "clamshell" mount that should accomodate a Mega 16 series, if I still choose to go that route. I like the idea of the Raider designed for an 05 and using Astro's 05, though.

I must say, although electric flying is certainly more convenient than glow, it is more confusing and certainly not any cheaper. With so many variables involved in electric flight (versus two or three for glow - engine size, prop, and fuel) it seems very easy to make costly mistakes.
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 10:04 AM
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Try this (think I copied it wrong in my last post - sorry):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...threadid=69720

I've got an Astro on a WW Raider, but it's the 010 (smaller than the 05) set up with a 7.5:1 Mini Demon gearbox, 3 Kokams and an APC 16 X 12E prop - a bit extreme, for your purpose.

Regarding TE cutout - it's really no big deal, Houdini. You may not need to cut out at all - the Raider has a less extreme T.E. sweep than most foamie wings, and your gearbox will carry the prop aft of it, probably.

Earlier, you asked about taping. Just put tape on top and underside of the cutout, from outboard of the end of the cutout, to the wing root. I don't cover my foamy wings. White's fine by me and no weight penalty. I do cover the L.E. with a strip of light transparent packaging tape, to protect against weed sawing and preserve the critical part of the airfoil.

- Jube
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 10:25 AM
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Hey Houdini,

A big thing here is what YOU really want from the plane. It doesn't sound to me like you need LOTS of speed or LOTS of vertical. I would suggest a Mega 16/15/7 (maybe a 16/15/6) These will run direct drive with a 9x6. And will use your exsisting batteries. (but run great on the new HE1100NiMH cells) This motor is direct drive, and cheap (as far as brushless go) I have a Jeti, a Hacker, and Astro and a Mega brushless motor. An I have to say they all work great, for the plane they fly. So again, it makes a big difference in what you want. For a "decent" perforamnce plane, cheap, whithout a gearbox, I find the Mega to be simple and cheap, and good perfomance.

On my Mega I run the TMM18E+3PH ESC. It works great for simple things. And is a little cheaper then other controls.

Again wiht the controller it depends what you want out of it. I also have a Castle Creations controller that has different timing advance options. (these are also great controllers)

All that said, Hacker is my current favorite, but thats because I'm currently into 3D flying planes.

Hope this helps a little

Darren
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 02:06 PM
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Uvalde, TX
Joined Sep 2002
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Thanks for all the input

I've been over to the Hobby Lobby website and came up with this combination. Tell me what you think:

Mega 16/15/5
Jeti 30-3P ESC
6x3 or 5x4 prop
8xN500A packs (already have and will try before buying something else).

Addler recommended a 16/15/6 or 7 turn with a larger prop (9x6). What would be the advantage of going this route? Longer duration or more thrust?

I looked at the Astro 05 set-ups, and they're very expensive - approaching $290 with a gearbox.

If it were your money, would this be a combination you would buy? Are the Jeti ESCs worth their price?

Thanks.

Houdini
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Old Dec 18, 2002, 03:24 PM
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Peachtree City, GA
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Houdini,
Someone earlier mentioned the Mega 16/15/4. That's what I use with an Aeronaut 6.5X4 prop with 8Xcp1300's. It think it pulls about 20 amps static. I'm not sure if your batteries can handle the amps and your runs would be short. If you go this route don't by the CP1300's get the new Sanyo 4/5AUP 1700 or the 4/5FAUP 1950. The cells are also the almost identical weights to the CP1300's. good to 30 amps. You should get long flights with those batteries. You can get the Mega and a Phoenix 25 controller for $139 @ www.dynamoelectrics.com.

The combo in your last post will be able to use your existing batteries, but the one above is definately more fun. I use your last combination on a cut down Zagi, but it doesn't work as well on my full size Zagi

Bobby
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