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Old Sep 19, 2010, 02:36 PM
Landings are not optional
DeuceTrinal's Avatar
Van Nuys, CA
Joined Sep 2003
1,805 Posts
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3DHS 42 Slick vs. PA 40 Addiction vs. 3DHS 46 Vyper

With my birthday coming up next month, and my Sniper X II (48" 23oz epp 3d plane) in two large pieces from a tx stick mishap, Ive been considering using the gear out of it in a better flying balsa plane. The Sniper was a good trainer plane, but was fairly flexible and lacked that locked-in precise feeling. It was also surprisingly unstable in certain attitudes for a lightweight foamy, with some significant wing rock in slow harrier, unlike some similar foamies Ive flown. With a 6.5 oz/sqft. wing loading, and a large side area and profile fuse, it didnt behave particularly well in the wind. In the typical afternoon breeze here in LA, typically gusting 8-12 mph, it was much like flying a rc kite. While this is fun for a while, it is hard to practice many maneuvers in, and gets old quickly for me. I really enjoy spins and tumbles, but the big light and draggy epp planes just lack momentum for that stuff. Im hoping to put the gear in a really well built balsa airframe that is known to be a great flyer, so I can concentrate on my flying skills and not worry about the plane.
Heres what is flying the Sniper around:
Motor: Hyperion Zs3007b-24 1110 kv 83g 37mm diameter
ESC: Hyperion Atlas 35A LBEC
Prop: Xoar 11x5 #1 choice. Typically used HK 11x5.5 apc clone or EMP 10x4.7 sf. when not using landing gear.
Batts: 1250-2200 3S Rhino 30C, Turnigy 20c, Hyperion 35C, 109g-193g
Servos: (Aileron, Elevator) Hyperion DS-11 SCB 10g 1.7Kg/cm digital programmable
Servos: (Rudder) Hyperion DS-11 AMB 10.5g 2.1kg/cm metal geared digital programmable
Rx: Spektrum AR 6110e
That setup typically pulls ~42A peak with a fresh 1550 30C pack, 420+ watts, which quickly drops to below 400 watts. Flight times of hard 3d in the 6 minute range with a 1350. This setup has been reliable and comes down with temps ~110 F on esc and motor. It moved the 23-26 oz Sniper around with pretty good authority, hovers at or just above 1/2 throttle. I think I could get away with a 12x4 or 12x5 xoar if i wanted and was careful on the throttle.

After lots of reading, it seems like the 3D Hobby Shop AJ Slick 42 seems to be a perfect plane for this gear.
Wingspan: 42"
Length: 38"
Wing Area: 375 sq. in.
Weight (RTF): 28-34 oz.
Wing Loading: 12-14 oz/sqft
Its known to be an incredible airframe, much loved by almost every owner. My existing gear would be on the slightly heavier and more powerful side, which I think would be a boon for tumbling and handling in wind. Unfortunately, its at least a month from being back in stock.

My other choice for the existing gear would be a Precision Aerobatics Addiction 40".
Wing span: 1000mm /39.5"
Length:1063mm/ 41.85"
Weight: RTF approx 750g / 26.5oz
Wing Area: 485 sq.in
Wing Loading: 7.9oz/sq.ft
It's a slightly lighter airframe with lower wingloading, but also known to be an incredible flyer and very forgiving as well as strong. I do worry it wouldn't handle the wind as well as I'd like, being so light and floaty.

Both those choices will take direct transplants of all the gear from the Sniper, no other cost than the airframe. The other plane I've been wanting for months is a 3DHS Vyper. I had been saving cash for a 65" Vyper, but now I think I may be leaning more towards a 70" 30CC plane, either 3DHS Slick or any of the many $300 25% gas arfs. The long flight times and low initial cost of gas over big electrics is very attractive to me right now, and I have a good field and a pickup truck, so they are a reasonable thing to consider.

So I was thinking that if I intend to buy a 70" gasser and not a big electric Vyper, I may as well pick up a 46" Vyper right now instead of a slick. My servos would be fine for the Vyper, but I'd need a bigger motor and ESC, so it'd cost double what the other two would.

I'm just not sure if the Vyper will be a good plane for me yet. I like to fly hard and tumble hard, but I'm definitely not a great precision pilot yet. I can hover, but I'm still working on torque rolls, and stable coordinated slow rolls only last a few revolutions before I get out of sync, though I'm improving every day I fly. I'm also practicing on a sim often, which I find very helpful. I don't want to step into a plane that needs a good firm guiding hand to stay in a harrier or hover and get frustrated because I can't keep up. I hear how easy the slick and addiction are to 3d, and I love that idea. I'm not sure how much more challenging a Vyper is going to be to harrier low and slow or do nice waterfalls with, compared to a Slick. The ability to zoom around with the warbirds or do big pattern maneuvers as well as handle the winds really well are what attract me to the Vyper.

My apologies for the long rambling post, thanks to anyone still reading

Any thoughts at all are welcome, I'd love to hear from anyone who has flown these planes.
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Old Sep 19, 2010, 03:06 PM
It's just a new plane honey!!!
Shuedog's Avatar
Joined Oct 2008
252 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceTrinal View Post
With my birthday coming up next month, and my Sniper X II (48" 23oz epp 3d plane) in two large pieces from a tx stick mishap, Ive been considering using the gear out of it in a better flying balsa plane. The Sniper was a good trainer plane, but was fairly flexible and lacked that locked-in precise feeling. It was also surprisingly unstable in certain attitudes for a lightweight foamy, with some significant wing rock in slow harrier, unlike some similar foamies Ive flown. With a 6.5 oz/sqft. wing loading, and a large side area and profile fuse, it didnt behave particularly well in the wind. In the typical afternoon breeze here in LA, typically gusting 8-12 mph, it was much like flying a rc kite. While this is fun for a while, it is hard to practice many maneuvers in, and gets old quickly for me. I really enjoy spins and tumbles, but the big light and draggy epp planes just lack momentum for that stuff. Im hoping to put the gear in a really well built balsa airframe that is known to be a great flyer, so I can concentrate on my flying skills and not worry about the plane.
Heres what is flying the Sniper around:
Motor: Hyperion Zs3007b-24 1110 kv 83g 37mm diameter
ESC: Hyperion Atlas 35A LBEC
Prop: Xoar 11x5 #1 choice. Typically used HK 11x5.5 apc clone or EMP 10x4.7 sf. when not using landing gear.
Batts: 1250-2200 3S Rhino 30C, Turnigy 20c, Hyperion 35C, 109g-193g
Servos: (Aileron, Elevator) Hyperion DS-11 SCB 10g 1.7Kg/cm digital programmable
Servos: (Rudder) Hyperion DS-11 AMB 10.5g 2.1kg/cm metal geared digital programmable
Rx: Spektrum AR 6110e
That setup typically pulls ~42A peak with a fresh 1550 30C pack, 420+ watts, which quickly drops to below 400 watts. Flight times of hard 3d in the 6 minute range with a 1350. This setup has been reliable and comes down with temps ~110 F on esc and motor. It moved the 23-26 oz Sniper around with pretty good authority, hovers at or just above 1/2 throttle. I think I could get away with a 12x4 or 12x5 xoar if i wanted and was careful on the throttle.

After lots of reading, it seems like the 3D Hobby Shop AJ Slick 42 seems to be a perfect plane for this gear.
Wingspan: 42"
Length: 38"
Wing Area: 375 sq. in.
Weight (RTF): 28-34 oz.
Wing Loading: 12-14 oz/sqft
Its known to be an incredible airframe, much loved by almost every owner. My existing gear would be on the slightly heavier and more powerful side, which I think would be a boon for tumbling and handling in wind. Unfortunately, its at least a month from being back in stock.

My other choice for the existing gear would be a Precision Aerobatics Addiction 40".
Wing span: 1000mm /39.5"
Length:1063mm/ 41.85"
Weight: RTF approx 750g / 26.5oz
Wing Area: 485 sq.in
Wing Loading: 7.9oz/sq.ft
It's a slightly lighter airframe with lower wingloading, but also known to be an incredible flyer and very forgiving as well as strong. I do worry it wouldn't handle the wind as well as I'd like, being so light and floaty.

Both those choices will take direct transplants of all the gear from the Sniper, no other cost than the airframe. The other plane I've been wanting for months is a 3DHS Vyper. I had been saving cash for a 65" Vyper, but now I think I may be leaning more towards a 70" 30CC plane, either 3DHS Slick or any of the many $300 25% gas arfs. The long flight times and low initial cost of gas over big electrics is very attractive to me right now, and I have a good field and a pickup truck, so they are a reasonable thing to consider.

So I was thinking that if I intend to buy a 70" gasser and not a big electric Vyper, I may as well pick up a 46" Vyper right now instead of a slick. My servos would be fine for the Vyper, but I'd need a bigger motor and ESC, so it'd cost double what the other two would.

I'm just not sure if the Vyper will be a good plane for me yet. I like to fly hard and tumble hard, but I'm definitely not a great precision pilot yet. I can hover, but I'm still working on torque rolls, and stable coordinated slow rolls only last a few revolutions before I get out of sync, though I'm improving every day I fly. I'm also practicing on a sim often, which I find very helpful. I don't want to step into a plane that needs a good firm guiding hand to stay in a harrier or hover and get frustrated because I can't keep up. I hear how easy the slick and addiction are to 3d, and I love that idea. I'm not sure how much more challenging a Vyper is going to be to harrier low and slow or do nice waterfalls with, compared to a Slick. The ability to zoom around with the warbirds or do big pattern maneuvers as well as handle the winds really well are what attract me to the Vyper.

My apologies for the long rambling post, thanks to anyone still reading

Any thoughts at all are welcome, I'd love to hear from anyone who has flown these planes.
Addie is the best 3d trainer. Lower wing loading.

If you going to move up to 70" and you have 3d skills all ready, go with the Slick.

New flown the viper. Sure it will do all fine.
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Old Sep 19, 2010, 03:30 PM
Barefoot Birkinsomething
rcbirk21's Avatar
United States, CA, Hayward
Joined Aug 2004
9,312 Posts
ive flown the 65 vyper, and if the 46 flies anything like it you will LOVE it. it 3d's so easily, but you can setup low rates inorder to have it fly just like a pattern plane, it really is a fantastic plane.

i had an addiction, and i didnt like it all that much. it will hover....and thats about it. if you want to advance your flying skills (and you can already hover), id recommend the 42 slick since you already have the gear (i dunno if that is the correct gear, just assuming you did your homework and checked ). i know so many people that love theirs and it is a very very versatile plane, you wont get bored with it. i have a feeling you want to improve your precision skills but still be able to huck, and if thats so then the vyper is one helluva plane.

my recommendation:

get the 42 slick since you have the gear, fly the crap out of it, and when you have the funds go with the 65 vyper if you want to do a bigger electric, or do a 72 extra 330sc if you want to do gas
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Old Sep 19, 2010, 04:05 PM
TEAM EXTREME FLIGHT
Doc Austin's Avatar
USA, FL, Largo
Joined Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceTrinal View Post
I'm just not sure if the Vyper will be a good plane for me yet. I like to fly hard and tumble hard, but I'm definitely not a great precision pilot yet.
Always work the weak part of your game. If you want to learn better precision, a precision plane like the Vyper would be the best bet.

For example, I hardly ever used to knife edge, but the Vyper does it so well I learned a lot from it, and now I fly much more KE with all my planes.

Quote:
I can hover, but I'm still working on torque rolls, and stable coordinated slow rolls only last a few revolutions before I get out of sync,
The Vyper is good at precision and it KEs like a monster. She's a great plane for that kind of work.

Quote:
I don't want to step into a plane that needs a good firm guiding hand to stay in a harrier or hover and get frustrated because I can't keep up. I hear how easy the slick and addiction are to 3d, and I love that idea.
The Vyper is a bit more difficult to harrier, but it's not hairy or anything. You need really good harrier skillls, and if you don't have them she will teach you. The Slick is easier to harrier, but the Vyper kills it in precision manevers and KE ability.

Quote:
I'm not sure how much more challenging a Vyper is going to be to harrier low and slow or do nice waterfalls with, compared to a Slick.
The Slick will be eaiser to do 3D with. It's a fantastic little plane and I love mine.

Quote:
The ability to zoom around with the warbirds or do big pattern maneuvers as well as handle the winds really well are what attract me to the Vyper.
The Vyper is my best 46-47" plane for high wind days. I think you give up a little 3D ability with the Vyper, but in return you get really good precision and high speed stability. I think it's the best package for overall flying out there.
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Old Sep 19, 2010, 06:54 PM
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FD Pilot's Avatar
Phoenix, AZ
Joined Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin View Post
The Vyper is my best 46-47" plane for high wind days. I think you give up a little 3D ability with the Vyper, but in return you get really good precision and high speed stability. I think it's the best package for overall flying out there.
I agree with Doc, best all-around airplane available - don't forget you can fly the Vyper with 3S or 4S, the Addiction and Slick I don't believe are setup for 4S. With 4S setup - the wind is no prob at all, and it tumbles like a beast!
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Old Sep 19, 2010, 10:04 PM
wrecklessly misspeling stuff..
tuck's Avatar
United States, CA, Citrus Heights
Joined Feb 2009
930 Posts
The weird thing is I actually compare my 46" vyper to the 39.5" addiction and the 42" slick. The vyp is so light and floaty like the addi but handles the wind incredably well for its size. The Addi doesn't. It is almost as nimble as the slick, with out all whaoh the slick has. I still am amazed at how easy hovering and torque rolls are with the 46" Vyper. I actually think it is as easy to 3d as the 3DH 57" 330 xtra SC. Those are my 2 favorite planes.
And it really isn't hard to harrier. But it will make you better. The vyp can harriar turn as tight and flat as the addi. As mentioned before the addi is not as versatile as the vyp. I really wish I bought the Vyper a year and a half ago.
Oh and if you need a new motor, the omega 103 for $44 is a steal.

The super stoked on the vyper guy
Zeb
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Old Sep 19, 2010, 10:19 PM
Team 3DHS
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San Antonio, TX
Joined Sep 2004
15,632 Posts
Since this is your first balsa, consider the 41" Edge also from 3DHS when they become in stock.
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Old Sep 19, 2010, 11:09 PM
Landings are not optional
DeuceTrinal's Avatar
Van Nuys, CA
Joined Sep 2003
1,805 Posts
These are awesome answers, thanks! I really appreciate your input Doc. It does seem like the Vyper might be a great choice if I can get the cash together.

FD Pilot - do I need to be running the 870kv motor in order to use 4 cells? I plan to start with my existing 2200 3 cells (20C-35C), but I'd love to have that option.
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Old Sep 19, 2010, 11:27 PM
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central PA.
Joined Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceTrinal View Post
These are awesome answers, thanks! I really appreciate your input Doc. It does seem like the Vyper might be a great choice if I can get the cash together.

FD Pilot - do I need to be running the 870kv motor in order to use 4 cells? I plan to start with my existing 2200 3 cells (20C-35C), but I'd love to have that option.
if you have three cells, stick with 'em... on the planes we're talking about, you don't really want to run them on 4 cells. For the Vyper, 130g Omega, 3S 2200mah pack, 14x7 xoar... it has more than enough giddyup to get your grin going
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Old Sep 20, 2010, 12:34 AM
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Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceTrinal View Post
FD Pilot - do I need to be running the 870kv motor in order to use 4 cells? I plan to start with my existing 2200 3 cells (20C-35C), but I'd love to have that option.
Well, KM seams to know more about this than I do. I set mine up like the pre-production Vyper Scott Stoops flew at AEF Jan 2009. As I recall the recommended setup for the Vyper when it first came out was the Torque 2814/820 or Omega 130/870 with 4S and the Torque 2818/900 or Omega 103/1030 with 3S. Since I was replacing my Aspera with the Vyper I went 4S with a Torque 2814/820. I've since switched to an Omega 130 to save a few grams an move the CG back. Now it seems the tide has changed and 3S is preferred according to KM. Just remember with 3S you will need a 55 amp speed control and more current capable batteries. A 45 amp ESC, which is perfect for a 4S setup, will not be big enough.
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Old Sep 20, 2010, 06:51 AM
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USA, FL, Largo
Joined Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by BoneDoc View Post
Since this is your first balsa, consider the 41" Edge also from 3DHS when they become in stock.
I missed that part about it being a first balsa plane, so thanks for catching that.

No, don't get the Vyper just yet. The 41" Edge is really good and the landing gear is about indestructable. The SHP is also a great choice.
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Old Sep 20, 2010, 08:08 AM
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central PA.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD Pilot View Post
Well, KM seams to know more about this than I do. I set mine up like the pre-production Vyper Scott Stoops flew at AEF Jan 2009. As I recall the recommended setup for the Vyper when it first came out was the Torque 2814/820 or Omega 130/870 with 4S and the Torque 2818/900 or Omega 103/1030 with 3S. Since I was replacing my Aspera with the Vyper I went 4S with a Torque 2814/820. I've since switched to an Omega 130 to save a few grams an move the CG back. Now it seems the tide has changed and 3S is preferred according to KM. Just remember with 3S you will need a 55 amp speed control and more current capable batteries. A 45 amp ESC, which is perfect for a 4S setup, will not be big enough.
speed and weight... 4S has excess, that's all. You can drag it all back to samey-samey with smaller packs and smaller props, but in the situation of the original poster is that they already have 3S 2200 packs. 3S being more than enough, makes the recommendation a no-brainer.
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Old Sep 20, 2010, 09:10 AM
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United States, CO, Denver
Joined May 2010
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i know you said you don't want to go foam after the sniper, but I hear the DW Foamies fly much more crisp like giant scale models and are good at handling wind since they are made of rigid depron. One of their 40" birds would probably fit your gear easily and won't need different batteries either. This would be a $60 option.

I have some 3S 2200 20c lipos sitting around from a beat up parkzone and once it meets its final demise, I plan to get one of DW Foamies 48" birds.
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Old Sep 20, 2010, 12:11 PM
Scott Stoops
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United States, CO, Longmont
Joined Mar 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuck View Post
The weird thing is I actually compare my 46" vyper to the 39.5" addiction and the 42" slick. The vyp is so light and floaty like the addi but handles the wind incredably well for its size. The Addi doesn't. It is almost as nimble as the slick, with out all whaoh the slick has. I still am amazed at how easy hovering and torque rolls are with the 46" Vyper. I actually think it is as easy to 3d as the 3DH 57" 330 xtra SC. Those are my 2 favorite planes.
And it really isn't hard to harrier. But it will make you better. The vyp can harriar turn as tight and flat as the addi. As mentioned before the addi is not as versatile as the vyp. I really wish I bought the Vyper a year and a half ago.
Oh and if you need a new motor, the omega 103 for $44 is a steal.

The super stoked on the vyper guy
Zeb
I'm really glad to see that the Vyper is finding a home in the 3D world. What that tells me (JMHO) is that the 3D world is transitioning towards the kind versatile flying style that I prefer and find more enjoyable. I absolutely don't want an airplane to fly like a kite, and some of the 3D models feel that way. I want a good combination of penetration (effectively stable tracking at speed), pitch authority at high alpha, and minimal coupling.

Scott
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Old Sep 20, 2010, 12:31 PM
myp
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Joined Oct 2007
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The 46" Vyper is my favorite plane for all the qualities that others had mentioned. However, harrier with the Vyper is definitely much harder (others might call it being different :-) than the 42" 3DHS Slick or the Addition. So, if you are getting the 46" Vyper, be prepared to be frustrated for some time in trying to harrier the Vyper.
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