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Old Jun 12, 2016, 08:23 AM
jobinseattle is offline
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A few landing questions

1. Is there ever a time when you want to mix aileron/rudder and does that assist with landing? I heard from someone it does.

2. On some planes when turning into the wind and when the wind gets underneath the plane the wind pushes the plane up and screws up my approach. How to fix?

The other day I was practicing landings with my Beaver and I thought they were looking good. I took my Sig Senior and T-Cips 70 and and also thought my landings were good.

I go out this morning and you would think I have never landed anything in my life.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 08:39 AM
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jobinseattle
Mixing aileron and rudder can be a way of making the plane do a neutral turn (without tending to yaw at the same time) using either aileron or rudder alone.
Whether it improves things depends very much on the plane design and remeber any mix is technically only correct for one speed unless you get really sophisticated and add a on board gyro input as well.
The best method is to use a 'human input' rudder/aileron mix based on what the plane is actually doing which is of course what an experienced pilot does without thinking.

Technically unless you are less than 10 feet off the ground the wind does not "get underneath the wing" as the plane does not feel the wind!
It is the fact the plane alters its motion relative to you on the ground that causes the problems.

And don't worry that you don't always perform the same you are a human!
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jobinseattle View Post
1. Is there ever a time when you want to mix aileron/rudder and does that assist with landing? I heard from someone it does.

2. On some planes when turning into the wind and when the wind gets underneath the plane the wind pushes the plane up and screws up my approach. How to fix?

The other day I was practicing landings with my Beaver and I thought they were looking good. I took my Sig Senior and T-Cips 70 and and also thought my landings were good.

I go out this morning and you would think I have never landed anything in my life.
1). I suppose that might help, but I try to avoid mixing like that. Reason is, a mix is just one ratio of one control surface to another. It may be just a little or a lot; but it's the same as long as it's active. I think when you are needing to add some rudder to aileron, you need to be able to adjust how much of it you want; and you won't get that with a mix.

2). Ah, this is one of the progenitors of the "dreaded downwind turn"!!! Discussed ad nauseum in this area. The "experts" say it doesn't/can't happen; I've experienced this phenomenon though. But to be fair, it isn't clear to me that it's not caused by something I've done rather than the wind or the plane.

My recommendation: Always make your turn well ahead of time, give yourself plenty of space to line up and establish a good "sink rate" (how much the plane is descending towards the ground). A good sink rate is a nice gradual descent, such that if you were to touch the ground, your plane would be in one piece afterwards. In a good sink rate, your nose should actually be a little high! Not pointing down!! To accomplish this nose high attitude, with the plane descending, you have to be going somewhat slow. And this takes some distance/time to achieve with trainer planes in particular.

There is an old saying I heard in college, so that would be over 35 years ago "sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you". That's what landings are like!!!! Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. However: I found my landing success improved considerably after I spent some (more than 8) sessions ONLY practicing landings and touch and go's. Even when you get one plane figured out; another one requires slighthly (at least) different technique.

Good luck and regards
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 11:02 AM
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Mixing might help when you're new because it means you don't need to closely coordinate two sticks. But over time if you learn to use the controls independently it's better.

Let me guess. You're flying an basic introductory model "trainer". Such models are set up with a strongly forward CG and associated tail trim that provides a strong postive pitch response to small changes in speed. This is mostly good on a trainer because the model will self correct from dives or stalls. But it makes it really tough to make truly smooth turns that transition into and out of the turn with the same speed.

Also if your model consistently noses up coming out of a turn you are either diving in the turn and building up speed or you are simply holding too much up elevator for too long.

One of the tougher things for new fliers to learn is to see when their model is diving in the turns and building up speed. It's not about controlling either. It's typically that their eyes have not yet learned to recognize a diving turn vs a level turn.

You also want to learn to roll into and out of your turns a little more slowly. Use a bit less aileron or rudder and work at coordinating the elevator so you ease it in more and more in tune with the changing bank angle. Same on leaving the turn, use a little less aileron or rudder and as the wings roll back ease the elevator back to neutral in time with the reducing bank angle. This will also aid in learning to see when the model is diving during the turn. If you find it speeding up during the turns it IS diving and will want to nose up strongly when you level the wings. If that is what is happening you need to adjust your concept of what the path of the model should look like while in the turn.

There's more to it but let's start with this. It also helps if you can do your initial practicing of this smooth and patient turn entry and exit coordination on a calmer day so wind doesn't add things to confuse the situation. Once you get the hang of it trust your eyes and thumbs and try it in more and more wind.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 11:14 AM
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landing

I have 1 plane that absolutley needs mixing, on landing and take off the ailerons are useless but it's a sopwith pup and I don't think the model was designed for ailerons.
when I fly I'm on the rudder for take off and landing as for thwe problems with landing there can be a few thing to look at,
first check the balance of your model, if its close it could be your whole problem slightly tail heavy or not nose heavy , well the plane flies good but when you land it wont settle down , flair, and generally start wrecking the airframe.
second, good landings are just practice, try doing approaces for most of a flight, only land if it looks good, never force it , and keep the approach gentle with space to flair early and slow the plane down,
even though I have flown for years and many different style of planes I can have a bad day getting them down. good luck sam
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 12:21 PM
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I have never learned to do coordinated turns, it sounds like that is very important. Think that is something I will practice doing.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jobinseattle View Post
I have never learned to do coordinated turns, it sounds like that is very important. Think that is something I will practice doing.
Learning to coordinate the elevator with the bank angle will not only make you a better pilot but it's even more important to smooth flying with the strongly pitch stable typical training model. Working the elevator is also like working the throttle as diving or climbing speeds up and slows down the model every bit as much as the throttle does. And on a strongly pitch stable trainer that wants to nose up with every little increase in speed getting the speed control through a turn by coordinating the elevator correctly will do a lot to avoiding those odd turn exit stalls you likely find yourself getting all too commonly.

Note that I'm focusing on coordinating the elevator with the bank angle and not rudder and aileron. Most times when talking about performing "coordinated" turns the speakers or writers are talking about using rudder with aileron. But really our models typically don't need that. But coordinating the amount of elevator with the bank angle is HUGELY important to a smooth flying style.

If you ever move over to sailplanes and flying without power it's even more critical. Badly coordinated elevator use on a glider can cost many needless feet of altitude during poor turns. And on a sailplane/glider height is your only "fuel". So glider guiders really need to focus on smooth elevator coordination all through a turn.

Learning to do the same thing with a powered model may not have the same impact on flight time but it's still a good thing to learn.

On calmer days I love to take my models out over the fields in "crop dusting" runs. that are only a foot or two off the top of whatever is growing on the field. Making my turns when this low really ups the need for proper elevator coordination. As you learn to fly more I'm sure you'll take up your own similar "games" to add some interest to your flying. And knowing how to work the controls to transition smoothly from one attitude to the next will become increasingly important to a good looking flight and easier landings.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 01:54 PM
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I have never learned to do coordinated turns, it sounds like that is very important. Think that is something I will practice doing.
If you have a flight sim that includes a helicopter, try flying a heli like a fixed wing with a fair bit of forward speed.

You can't fly a sim heli without coordinating 'aileron' and 'rudder', it gives good practice in coordinated turns.


Ray.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 02:03 PM
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Hi... passing through ...

ahh ... coordinated turns.

The thing that makes people with SAFE equipped planes wonder why they cant turn on a dime even in beginner mode.

FYI: SAFE equipped planes can turn on a dime in beginner mode with coordinated turns.

If you really are into flying, and can get to an airport. ... most places that offer private pilots licenses will take you up for ~15min for a minimal fee... im my experience it is around $25usd for a ride in a Cessna.

Reason I mention this, .. you will get to see the 'slip indicator'.
the only way, IMO, to experience what coordinated turns, and well, uncoordinated turns are... is by the feel of what that slip indicator is doing.
It's hard to get a discipline towards it if you can't feel it. Observing is one thing.. feeling is another.

well, that is my opinion. also is my opinion that people who take up RC flight should try and seek out an airport that offers that initial flight for a minimal fee. It is well worth the experience.



Enjoy!
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 03:03 PM
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One more thing about the illusion that turning into the wind causes the plane to rise. Most of us get a rough idea of how large a radius a turn "should" have, looking at it from the ground. Assuming a constant throttle setting (which is how most beginners fly most of the time), your ground speed going downwind or crosswind will be greater than it will be going upwind, although your airspeed, which you can't see, is the same. Therefore, to get the same radius for a turn when turning toward the wind as you'd get on a calm day or when turning away from the wind you have to use more aileron, and therefore more elevator, than you'd use for an identical-looking turn not toward the wind. As a result, if you don't bring the elevator back to neutral in time, which requires more stick motion than when turning downwind or on a calm day, your plane will nose up.

Short version: When turning into the wind, beginners have a tendency to fail to bring the elevator all the way back to neutral in time. With practice, you'll stop doing this.

One of the things full-scale student pilots practice (and get tested on) is flying in a circle on a windy day, holding altitude constant. The trick is that you have to use more aileron, more rudder, and more elevator when turning toward the wind, and less when turning away from the wind.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 03:17 PM
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.....................................


The trick is that you have to use more aileron, more rudder, and more elevator when turning toward the wind, and less when turning away from the wind.
AARRRGGGG!


Wont the myth ever die.


Ray.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 03:22 PM
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One of the things full-scale student pilots practice (and get tested on) is flying in a circle on a windy day, holding altitude constant**. The trick is that you have to use more aileron, more rudder, and more elevator when turning toward the wind, and less when turning away from the wind.
** AND while "trying" to maintain the same diameter circle.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 03:50 PM
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Wont the myth ever die.
I'm not spreading the downwind turn myth. As AJ.K says, and as I thought I made clear in my post, if you want to make a circle, which means keeping all your turns the same radius, you have to use more aileron, etc, when your ground speed is higher, and it's higher when flying downwind. As I said, every full-scale pilot practices this. It's also a major part of the explanation for why so many people (RC and full scale) stall and crash when turning from downwind to base and from base to final. They have to use more aileron and elevator to keep their turns looking pretty from the ground, so if their airspeed's a little low, but fine for straight-line flight, they stall.

Really, you should take the trouble to understand a post before making smart remarks about it. Do you have an explanation for why beginners' planes often tend to climb when they turn into the wind?
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 03:55 PM
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Regarding ground reference maneuvers... When trying to do a constant radius circle, when turning cross wind from traveling upwind ,a shallower turn is required than turning crosswind from downwind. To help keep the plane from drifting with the wind.
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Old Jun 12, 2016, 04:02 PM
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Do you have an explanation for why beginners' planes often tend to climb when they turn into the wind?
As you already posted it's due to the beginner not easing off the elevator fast enough.

As for needing more control deflection that one is false in a way. I do agree that a lot of new pilots DO need more control input to turn back upwind. But only because they let their airspeed drop on the downwind portion by trying to raise the nose a little to slow down what they think is too much speed. This makes the controls soft and the model needs more input to give the desired response.

If low time pilots would trust the model's trim to set and keep the AIRspeed constant they will find that the controls respond the same for things like roll rate and elevator response regardless of going downwind or upwind. But when we see the model streak by on the downwind leg it seems like it's just way too fast. It isn't but to a low timer flying a small and slow flying model in fairly strong winds it looks like it's about to bust the sound barrier.

......And thus another thread quickly moves away from trying to provide basics on piloting and getting into the technical and academic nitty gritty. This one isn't too far gone yet but it's rapidly moving that way.
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