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Old Jan 08, 2013, 03:15 PM
InJamNoOneCanHearYouScrea m
United States, NH, Nashua
Joined Jun 2009
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David thanks for taking on the CD responsibilities for 2013!

As a 2012 noob cross country pilot I enjoyed the XC part of the NATS immensely. I earned my LSF 3 flying a gigantic one km goal and return, and then tacked on a few more miles after that…just barely missing that 10km Goal and Return by a few tenths of a mile using a beat up Pike. It was quite an education and the friendships forged were the best. Who the heck was flying that Windward on course last year?

I understood the rules when they were explained last year. It certainly was not rocket science (although I wonder), and if you have to really think about the math of there are a few turnaround points on the course and you can do this and that … versus go to the end of the course at 10km and turn around and fly back, well enough said there. There was a plethora of LSF 5 cross country’s done last year too (maybe they did not understand how the program worked of going to the end and coming back). There was a few people working on their second time through the LSF program on their Level 5. The program works!

Hats off to Skip! Trying to keep up with him was impossible. Besides having a nice car (missing a really good looking driver from some sports car company in my opinion), he was phenomenal - especially voiding his bladder with one hand and flying with the other...

I do not see a need for the introduction of new rules. Hopefully just a…Lets see cross the start line, go to the end at 10km and return to the starting line, cross that again and rinse and repeat in the time alotted. Not hard too understand. If you are flying your LSF tasks you can do those as part of the course anyway.

No GYROS is my vote. If you can’t fly your airplane with your Mark 1 eyeballs a gyro is not going to help you find a thermal, stay in it, sky out, and run down the course. Do you really need one? There was only a short 100 yard section of trees anyway to worry about, but the good pilots kept their planes over head in sight. Somebody beat into my head that if the airplane is trimmed propperly it almost seems to fly by itself a tad bit better (hmmm beat up Pike).

What is allowable and what is not is up to the CD regardless of the griefing community as opinions are abundant…I think.

Smile with me…

Wally by Golly
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 03:43 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadasczi View Post
Who the heck was flying that Windward on course last year?
I think you might mean Paragon and that was me.

http://pinterest.com/pin/108790147219420810/

Sunday was a heck of a day for the Paragon. I should have been able to complete my 10K Goal and return that day but due to a bit of poor planning on the day on my part that didn't happen. I had a ton of fun though and as always it is great flying from the back of a pickup truck.

Ryan
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 05:25 PM
InJamNoOneCanHearYouScrea m
United States, NH, Nashua
Joined Jun 2009
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Ryan I hope you can make it this year. So awesome to see you out on course last year going old school!
Wally
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 06:20 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Wally,

I might be doing F3K next year at the Nats and that would put a crimp on me doing XC again.

I do like that XC course and the way the event is organized a lot though. Unfortunately in life a person can't always have everything and it might not work out for me next year to do XC at the Nats.

Ryan
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 05:12 PM
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Amherst, NH
Joined Apr 2005
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Updated rules have been posted

I've updated the rules for 2013 and posted them in the first message of this thread. See http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23415396&postcount=1.

Note that we will be running two classes this year!
  • Winch launch
  • Electric launch

That's right, you can expect to see propeller equipped sailplanes on the course. Electric launch ships must have motor cutoff at 200 meters, but will be allowed as many motor restarts as desired prior to entering the course.

Once on course, motor restarts will result in voided flight (zero score).

Please take a moment to review the new rules document and let me know if I missed anything.

David
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 08:19 AM
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United States, CO, Denver
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A couple updates still needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbeach View Post
.......Please take a moment to review the new rules document and let me know if I missed anything......

David
Hi David,
Yes you missed a couple things. You state in the post above that electrics are allowed and to review the new rules. Your new rules state that only winch launch is allowed. You need to update that.

Also your rules still state that all flights will be used to score an accumulative total score for the day even after Joe's post on technique.

"F3H rule deviations:

Task - cumulative distance over a closed course (2 points) - all flights on the course contribute to the team score."

So if I can get a mile out on the course from winch launch before landing and repeat that 80 times during the day, then my cross country distance for the day and the new Nats record will be 80 miles ?

Even those that are only there for their LSF distance are being challenged to see how far they can fly in one flight. The LSF distance tasks aren't accumulative, neither should an open distance contest be nor has it been.

Mike
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThermalSeeker View Post
Hi David,
Yes you missed a couple things.
<snip>
Mike
Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to review the rules and provide feedback. I think the 2013 NATS XC Rules document in the first post is OK, but the text of the that post needed revision, which has been done.

I've also edited Post #5 to better reflect the 'best single flight each day' scoring decision.

David
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 10:59 PM
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David,

That looks much better and I'm glad that you've got the kinks worked out early.

I think the electric class as you have it is a good thing. There won't be any motor running on the course so everyone that's trying to read air by watching someone else can continue to do so as if none of the gliders are powered. So if a separate electric class brings more participants, I'm happy to see it.

Mike
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Old Mar 02, 2013, 11:53 AM
They call me Crash!
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Ohio
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What is the FAI weight limit for a electric XC sailplane?
Also, Are fuel powered sailplanes allowed?

Dan
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Old Mar 02, 2013, 06:23 PM
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Joined Jan 2003
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5 Kg, like all FAI weight limits.

There is no FAI event, official or provisional for a motor-assisted XC model.

ALES is, by definition, an ELECTRIC event, so I'm going out on a limb by saying no fueled IC motors allowed. As David is the Nats XC CD, he can speak to those rules in particular.
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Old Mar 02, 2013, 07:46 PM
They call me Crash!
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Ohio
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I was hoping because we now have a motor, esc, and a lipo, that the 5kg limit would be more, at least in the XC
category.
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Old Mar 03, 2013, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkallev View Post
5 Kg, like all FAI weight limits.

There is no FAI event, official or provisional for a motor-assisted XC model.

ALES is, by definition, an ELECTRIC event, so I'm going out on a limb by saying no fueled IC motors allowed. As David is the Nats XC CD, he can speak to those rules in particular.
Thanks for jumping in Tom, you are correct on both counts. The ALES class must follow the 5Kg weight limit, electric motors with 200 meter limiters.

David
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Old Apr 20, 2013, 08:40 PM
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XC scoring at USA nationals

Hi David
I hope plans are going well with the XC National Championships

I am trying to decide if I am flying XC or DLG that weekend

Can you please verify the National Champion will be determined by the two days total mileage of single best flight for each day. The mileage has historically been added NOT normalized . Accumlating the best mileage from each day has always been the way we select the National Champion. A few years ago we had very short " sled rides" in the rain. Those should have no effect on the true raw distance which was sorted out the following day. If you gave 1000 points for a 2 mile sled ride and a 1000 points for a significant journey,( say 60 plus miles) it would skew the results. It appears in the rules published you are normalizing and I would recommend you clarify that it is the best flight from each day raw mileage

Please clarify

Thanks

Skip Miller
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxer View Post

Can you please verify the National Champion will be determined by the two days total mileage of single best flight for each day. The mileage has historically been added NOT normalized . Accumlating the best mileage from each day has always been the way we select the National Champion. A few years ago we had very short " sled rides" in the rain. Those should have no effect on the true raw distance which was sorted out the following day. If you gave 1000 points for a 2 mile sled ride and a 1000 points for a significant journey,( say 60 plus miles) it would skew the results. It appears in the rules published you are normalizing and I would recommend you clarify that it is the best flight from each day raw mileage

Please clarify

Thanks

Skip Miller
Skip,

Thanks for taking the time to review the posted rules and requesting clarification. You are correct that the scoring for XC will be different this year. While it is likely that the National Champion will be the team with the highest total mileage from their best flight each day, the scoring will be determined as described in rule #14 posted in the first message of this thread.

Quote:
"Any number of attempts will be allowed during the official contest hours. Each team’s best single flight per day will be scored on a prorated basis in comparison to the team travelling the longest distance that day. Overall standings will be determined by the sum of the scores from each day. Shortest total elapsed time will be used as a tie-breaker."
The decision to do things differently this year was based on my review of the FAI F3H provisional rules (also posted in the first message of this thread). Section 5.H.6 addresses prorated scoring and also states "The overall winner shall be determined by adding together all the daily scores."

While this is a deviation from prior NATS practice, it is consistent with FAI rules and other multi-day XC events that I have competed in.

I hope we see you at the XC course again this year.

David
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Old Apr 22, 2013, 08:59 AM
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David,
Thanks for taking this on.
Our team and maybe several others will plan to attend the Nats when the next XC is happening. Would that be 2014?
Regards Dean
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