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 Jan 19, 2013, 06:56 PM Registered User McKinney, TX Joined May 2007 1,721 Posts I flew my first Guardian in my PZ P-51D BL today in a bit of wind (10 mph or so). So far, I'm very happy with it. I first thought that I didn't see any difference...until I was halfway through the first flight and realized that I hadn't done any trimming. I had reset all my trims and transitioned from one aileron channel to two at the time I installed the Guardian, so my odds of getting perfect trim were slim. I still have to tweak the gains. I don't have a free channel for a master gain control yet, so I'm having to figure out the optimum gains the hard way. That's a task for a calmer day.
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Jan 20, 2013, 07:16 AM
Your customer
Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
1,408 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Deerslayer Once again, I ask: What is the range of Master Gain? Details: We understand that at Servo travel = -100%, the Master Gain is 0, effectively being an OFF setting. I take it from the Guardian manual that at Servo travel = 0, the Master Gain is 1.0 and therefore anything from 0 through +100 would then yield a Master Gain of from 1.0 to (2.0?). Elsewhere in here, it was suggested that the Master Gain maximum is 1.0, which would occur at Servo travel = +100%. Which is true? Despite what has been suggested elsewhere in here, I am not over-thinking this. It is a simple and obvious question and I have a very good reason to want to know. I see no reason why ET wouldn't want to make things as clear as possible. BILLPA, can you help?
I'll give it a stab. It has to do with scale's. Similar to Inches vs. Metric on a rule(r).

Your servo endpoints go from -100 to +100. The Guardian's Master Gain on the other hand goes from 0% to 100%.

So if you where to take a paint stick and start carving on tick marks on one edge that went from -100 to +100, and on the other edge 0% to 100% then you would find that at 0 travel the Master Gain equals 50%.

Using percentages is much nicer in describing your setting for the Master Gain. Using a scale that goes from 0 to 1.0 to 2.0 would be awkward at best.
Last edited by Silverexpress; Jan 20, 2013 at 07:49 AM.
Jan 20, 2013, 10:16 AM
Registered User
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
16,653 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by choochoo22 This discussion of gain is prompted by what seems to be an unfortunate choice of nomenclature by Eagle Tree. To begin with "percentage" of what, exactly are we talking about? In my mind it's percentage of maximum gain, which by definition is 100%. So with pots and master at max, this is the most gain we can get and should be 100%. Calling this 200% doesn't make much sense, but also doesn't make much difference. Both the pots and master gain are uncalibrated analog knobs. When you turn them up you get more gain, down is less. Does it really matter what number is associated with the gain you are using? Typically you will adjust the gains for max gain short of oscillation and probably leave it there, perhaps dialing down the master occasionally. About the only time it seems to matter is when trying to communicate settings to someone else. If we communicate both the pot and master positions we should be fine. The section of the manual quoted by ricoalonso stopped short of the line that says "The ranges given above apply when the Guardian gain dials are set to about +-50° from center", which is less than half travel. How does that alter the discussion? Also contributing to the confusion, it is rather difficult to determine with any accuracy how much gain you are actually experiencing. It might be interesting for someone with an uninstalled Guardian to set up a bench test. For instance, ET says with the gain plug disconnected, you get 40%, of 100%, or 200%? How does the gain change when the wire is plugged in and master at half, full position? Deerslayer, you seem like the perfect person to set up such a bench test and determine how these settings actually translate to percentage figures.
ChooChoo,

+1. I totally agree. The master gain and three on board pots are uncalibrated analog controls. In my opinion the master gain is simply like have a master volume control over three speakers. It ranges from OFF to full ON.
 Jan 20, 2013, 10:36 AM Registered User Joined Mar 2011 19 Posts Pulsing surface in elevon mode Greetings, I have an Airfield 64mm F18 which I have configured as elevon (ailerons used as flaps) on a Turnigy 9X, working fine for 2 years. I then removed the elevon feature, installed the 2D-3D (new from HK, first time used, recent batch [waited since August 2012]) and enabled the Eagletree elevon mode. Everything works fine except that inexplicably every minute or so, one of the surfaces (elevator) pulses about 2 second intervals to near maximum, and this goes on for about 20 seconds, then it stops. I doubt it's the receiver or transmitter as they worked fine when the 2D-3D was not in circuit. Firmware 1.17, Data recorder 10.43 Cheers Last edited by Andre Germain; Jan 20, 2013 at 11:26 AM.
 Jan 20, 2013, 10:37 AM Registered User USA, KS, Derby Joined Mar 2003 1,476 Posts Master Gain and Guardian gain? Has anyone ever considered that maybe (just maybe) the ET programmer who did their firmware code had it so that when the Master Gain is not connected, the maximum gyro gains is only at 50% when the gain pots are at the maximum position? If this is true then that explains the updated entry in the manual. Last edited by ricoalonso; Jan 20, 2013 at 10:57 AM.
 Jan 20, 2013, 11:41 AM Registered User Joined Apr 2011 247 Posts Hi there, Can someone help me with initial setup of the guardian. I have it in the model and the controls etc are working fine, the gains are set and the compensation works fine. There are a few problems that interest me. Do you set up your aircraft on the tx with 0% subtrim and zero trims, I ask as this model flew before and in the previous model memory there was sub trim set to get the servo arms at 90 degs, then the rod was adjusted to get level trim etc. If subtrim is used with guardian does this get interpreted as a control input and subsequently try to execute the subtrim as a command to turn or elevate. If so what is the best way to get your servo,s set prior to using the guardian. I can't find reference to this in the manual. Also changing the gain knob on my dx8 to control master gain seems to move the control surfaces as well this does not seem correct, have I got some thing set up wrong?
 Jan 20, 2013, 11:58 AM Registered User Joined Aug 2005 957 Posts Master Gain and Guardian gain? Numbers again. As near as I can tell, master gain (-100% to +100% in the tx) simply allows you to go from zero gain (off) to guardians pot setting as max. The pot setting being the available max gain. Have the tx master gain at +100% and need more gain? Increase the pot setting.
Jan 20, 2013, 02:15 PM
Registered User
USA, KS, Derby
Joined Mar 2003
1,476 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Busher Hi there, Can someone help me with initial setup of the guardian. I have it in the model and the controls etc are working fine, the gains are set and the compensation works fine. There are a few problems that interest me. Do you set up your aircraft on the tx with 0% subtrim and zero trims, I ask as this model flew before and in the previous model memory there was sub trim set to get the servo arms at 90 degs, then the rod was adjusted to get level trim etc. If subtrim is used with guardian does this get interpreted as a control input and subsequently try to execute the subtrim as a command to turn or elevate. If so what is the best way to get your servo,s set prior to using the guardian. I can't find reference to this in the manual. Also changing the gain knob on my dx8 to control master gain seems to move the control surfaces as well this does not seem correct, have I got some thing set up wrong?
Whatever trims and subtrims you had in your aircraft before the Guardian 2d/3D was installed, should remain BUT, you need to let the Guardian know about it by doing the Reset Trim procedure as detailed in the Guardian manual. The same procedure should be done after everytime the amount of trim/subtrim is changed. The Guardian's Reset Trim procedure is to tell the Guardian that your neutral sticks postion contains some trims to add into considerations and NOT to interprete that amount of trim/subtrim as a command to turn or elevate.

As for your master gain affecting the control surface deflection as you change it, it could be caused by not doing the Reset Trim procedure and the Guardian is currently interpreting any trim as a command. Try performing the Reset Trim procedure first and see what happens. I know there are a few other ways this can happen depending in what mode (ie: 2D or 3D HH) you are in but let's do this one step at a time.
Last edited by ricoalonso; Jan 20, 2013 at 02:28 PM.
Jan 20, 2013, 02:56 PM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2011
247 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ricoalonso Whatever trims and subtrims you had in your aircraft before the Guardian 2d/3D was installed, should remain BUT, you need to let the Guardian know about it by doing the Reset Trim procedure as detailed in the Guardian manual. The same procedure should be done after everytime the amount of trim/subtrim is changed. The Guardian's Reset Trim procedure is to tell the Guardian that your neutral sticks postion contains some trims to add into considerations and NOT to interprete that amount of trim/subtrim as a command to turn or elevate. As for your master gain affecting the control surface deflection as you change it, it could be caused by not doing the Reset Trim procedure and the Guardian is currently interpreting any trim as a command. Try performing the Reset Trim procedure first and see what happens. I know there are a few other ways this can happen depending in what mode (ie: 2D or 3D HH) you are in but let's do this one step at a time.
Thanks for your help I will get back to the aircraft and see what is required to sort the trims etc.
 Jan 20, 2013, 03:44 PM Registered User Sweden, Västra Götaland County Joined Nov 2012 1 Posts Eagletree. Turnigy 9x Frsky, Setup Hi There! :-) Can someone PLEASE help me, I'm going CRAZY! :-) I have googled for a week now but can't get my settings right. Here is what I have: Turnigy 9X with Frsky module (Mode 2) Guardian ( 2D & 3D) My problem: 1.) Don't know which radio input method I must use. 2.) Ch6 (of the Rx) is pluged into Aux & Ch7 into mod & Ch8 into Gain, . Is that correct? Looking forward to ANY reply. Henryle
Jan 20, 2013, 03:57 PM
Suspended Account
United States, AZ, Tucson
Joined Mar 2012
3,265 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by henryle eagletree. Turnigy 9x frsky, setup hi there! :-) can someone please help me, i'm going crazy! :-) i have googled for a week now but can't get my settings right. Here is what i have: Turnigy 9x with frsky module (mode 2) guardian ( 2d & 3d) my problem: 1.) don't know which radio input method i must use. 2.) ch6 (of the rx) is pluged into aux & ch7 into mod & ch8 into gain, . Is that correct? Looking forward to any reply. Henryle
me too!
Jan 20, 2013, 04:22 PM
Registered User
Kingston Ontario Canada
Joined May 2006
205 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by t.edwards Master Gain and Guardian gain? Numbers again. As near as I can tell, master gain (-100% to +100% in the tx) simply allows you to go from zero gain (off) to guardians pot setting as max. The pot setting being the available max gain. Have the tx master gain at +100% and need more gain? Increase the pot setting.
This made sense to me ... until I read what it says in the manual (Version 1.7, Page 6):
~0% to 100% (1.9ms servo pulse, 200% Overall Gain)
thereby making the maximum overall gain possible of 2x whatever is set on the pots, right?

It does state at the first of this section:
When this feature is used with 2D mode,

which could mean that perhaps what happens in 2D mode is different than how things are interpreted in 3D mode?

I probably should apologize for whipping a dying horse and wasting everyone's time on this matter. I fly year round up here in the Great White North (+90F down to -10F and often windy as hell, with or without some snow to make it more interesting); knowing the intimate details of my radio gear is probably a lot less important to me than remembering to wear warm socks when I head out to the flying field. But then, there are those occasional days when the weather is poor, so I end up thinking about this stuff.
Jan 20, 2013, 04:58 PM
Registered User
Joined Aug 2005
957 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Deerslayer This made sense to me ... until I read what it says in the manual (Version 1.7, Page 6): ~0% to 100% (1.9ms servo pulse, 200% Overall Gain) thereby making the maximum overall gain possible of 2x whatever is set on the pots, right? No, it just means from -100 to +100 is a range of 200. It does state at the first of this section: When this feature is used with 2D mode, which could mean that perhaps what happens in 2D mode is different than how things are interpreted in 3D mode? 2D is different in that its self stabilizing, resets the plane to it's pre-set attitude which it doesn't do in 3D
I think you're just getting tangled up in some "less than ideal" wording in the manual. I think it needs to be looked at as just "more" or "less". The numbers are relative and are simply a numeric way to say "more" or "less".
Jan 20, 2013, 05:15 PM
Registered User
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
16,653 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by t.edwards I think you're just getting tangled up in some "less than ideal" wording in the manual. I think it needs to be looked at as just "more" or "less". The numbers are relative and are simply a numeric way to say "more" or "less".
Yes, the convoluted and near psychotic word salad numbering scheme is simply confusing! "More or higher" gain when turning clockwise and "less or lower" total gain when turning it counter or anti clockwise.
Jan 20, 2013, 05:22 PM
Chasin' that Neon Rainbow
Australia, QLD, Grantham
Joined Oct 2012
2,970 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by HenryLe Eagletree. Turnigy 9x Frsky, Setup Hi There! :-) Can someone PLEASE help me, I'm going CRAZY! :-) I have googled for a week now but can't get my settings right. Here is what I have: Turnigy 9X with Frsky module (Mode 2) Guardian ( 2D & 3D) My problem: 1.) Don't know which radio input method I must use. 2.) Ch6 (of the Rx) is pluged into Aux & Ch7 into mod & Ch8 into Gain, . Is that correct? Looking forward to ANY reply. Henryle
Have you read post #2792? It helped me. but my 9X is stock standard.

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