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Old Apr 07, 2012, 03:45 PM
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Murman's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
The orginal wind was DLRK I think, not ABC.
The only B&R Wonders that are DLRK are the 3000kv versions. The 1500kv is an ABC wind.
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Old Apr 07, 2012, 08:38 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Ah, that makes a difference doesn't it. I was thinking that they were all DLRK.

So he at least needs to know which one he had.

Jack
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Old Apr 07, 2012, 11:55 PM
evz
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Colorado
Joined Oct 2009
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It is 12/16.
I check for shorts over and over. If I missed turn/wrap..how critical is it, when they come from HK, they always do and still run. Bad solder.. possibility, I will re-do the whole thing. If I terminated the S1,2,3, end E 1,2,3, back/opposite would it make a difference? I did scrubbed the insulation good. I was after low KV and lots of trust. Did not get into this deep enough to have a KV meter and the fancy stuff you guys have, just the ways it fly's.
The motor seem to get warm quick.
I do appreciate your input a lot!
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 10:51 PM
TeachSeventh
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Houston
Joined Dec 2008
119 Posts
Hey Kev,

Question. I have a 2730/3000 wound DLRK, terminated wye. I want a few more RPM out of it, with everything remaining the same, IE.....AWG, prop, do I add a turn or two to each pole or reduce a turn or two per pole to get the R's up? Thanks, Joe
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Old Apr 26, 2012, 04:45 AM
homo ludens modellisticus
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The Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
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Kv x turns = constant
rewrite as
Kv = constant / turns

Therefore Kv goes up/down when number of turns decreases/increases.

turns_new = turns_old x Kv_old / Kv_new

Parallel strands count as one wire.

Keep in mind that current wants to go up cubed with Kv. (if the battery is not a dud). A 10% higher Kv will result in 30% higher current. Increase Kv by factor 1.2 and current wants to increase by a factor (1.2) = 1.7, 70% higher. Double Kv and current wants to increase by factor 2 = 8.

What are your current Kv and number of turns? What Kv are you want?

(Re)winding and building motors, FAQ
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
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Get a life ... get a Watt-meter!!!
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Old Apr 26, 2012, 01:37 PM
TeachSeventh
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Houston
Joined Dec 2008
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Hi Ron, Thank you for your response. My question revolves around a specific goal for my combat delta's see pic to this post. This is a 2730/3000 rewound DLRK.

The battery is a 3S, 40C 800 mAh. The prop is an EMP 6x5. The wire is 10 turns of micro-dan 24 AWG. I terminate wye. WOT pulls about 6.5 amps. This gives me descent flight times in the eight minute range. In the combat I am not flying WOT all the time but pulling sharp turns, pull ups, etc... and I like the thrust and torque that this setup offers. What I am unhappy about is the top end WOT speed. I need more oomph to catch the bad guys or get them off my tail. I only need a little bit more and can handle an increase in current for higher kv within reason but can't go crazy or will loose my flight duration time which has to be at least in the five to six minute range. I have played with adding or reducing a turn and don't see a lot of difference. Evidently, I am going to have to add or from what I understand now from your formula reduce two or three turns. In doing that I could probably increase wire gauge to 23 or 22. Would that be a good idea.

I will fess up, I have tried to use the various motor calc programs and they ask for many variables/acronyms that I don't have a clue of what they are looking for. Is there one you recommend that is user friendly where all I have to do is enter wire gauge, turns, prop, cell count/voltage, in other words the basics to get an estimate of KV and current draw.

Thanks again for your help,

Best regards,

Joe
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Old Apr 26, 2012, 02:08 PM
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
The Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
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You could simply go from wye to delta, that will increase Kv by factor sqrt(3). Very important to connect the beginnings and endings and phases correct, otherwise one of the phase will be 180degrees out of ... eeehm ... phase. Motor will hardly run, or not at all.

You have to prop down though to keep current down.

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
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Old Apr 26, 2012, 04:27 PM
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Truglodite's Avatar
Carmichael, CA
Joined Feb 2007
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Joe,

Any rules of engagement (equipment specs)? Can you change the prop? How many more amps can you draw?

By "taking one turn out", meaning not rewinding 9T altogether, but modifying the existing wind by quickly pulling termination apart and removing a 6 single loops, and reterminating to make a 9.5T-Y, you'll get around 2012Kv. The ~10% increase in Kv should yield around 10% more amps, and a corresponding increase in RPM. While there may be better options involving different winds, this may be all you're after. If you want to explore other options, I just uploaded a spreadsheet "rewind-BRW" to my blog, which contains my latest bench data with the current red and black rotors. As usual, not every prop and power level is included in my tests, but it's got enough content to do just about anything with these motors... even my 10p experiments tested very close to my design predictions.

You could simply increase prop size for a little more oomph; more pitch=more top speed.

Like Ron said you can also re-terminate delta. One caveat, root(3) is a big change in Kv. I'd be worried about poor climb & acceleration, but with the light epp wings we do combat with around here, I've found I do better with down low high G turn tactics... versus a swoop down from above energy management tactic. So for me, I'd probably prop up instead. If you prefer high energy attacks from above, then going delta and propping down may work better.

Cheers,
Kev
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Old Apr 26, 2012, 09:47 PM
TeachSeventh
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Houston
Joined Dec 2008
119 Posts
Thanks Ron and Kev, great ideas and information.

Just for fun I terminated Delta as you suggested Ron and that turned it into a Blue Streak but it was pulling about 32 amps plus static, it was definitely fun for the four minutes of flight time.

I did the 9.5 Y suggestion and got what I am looking for. Perfect speed, vertical climb out of sight and the static amps was about11. This plane really unloads in the air with this motor prop combo, you can hear it ramp up as you approach WOT and it looks like it goes into warp drive.

Ron, I also visited your hyperlink for the Drive Calc and downloaded the manual. It seems more user friendly than I remember previously so I am going to give it another shot.

The only rules for the combat deltas are that you have to use a 2730 be it a 3000, 1700 or 1500. Ironically one of the guys has an original Blue and Red 1500 and out of the group that runs stock, its the best all around and gets the best flight times. That's what I am trying to accomplish with the 3000 DLRK and after tonight I think I am very close.

I may still try propping up. The problem I ran into there is the hub thickness increases greatly when you make the jump on the EMP series it goes from 7mm on the 6 Inch series to 11 mm on the 7 inch series and doesn't mount or work very well. I may try a CAM or Master Airscrew.

Yep, I have watched your 10P hotliner tube a few times. That's a screamer.

My goal over the next few weeks is to have three different motors with different turns and then swap them during a mornings flying for comparison. I may also try an ABC version with the 16 magnet bell. Never wound one of those yet.

Thanks again to both of you,

Joe
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 04:47 PM
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Does DLRK change the kV if same number of winds used as ABC?

I've been flying an 8t 23g motor which was wound ABC connected delta. Good speed and power but it seems to be hard on the esc. I'm thinking the DLRK might be a better way to go?
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Last edited by leadfeather; Jun 04, 2012 at 04:56 PM.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 06:35 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfeather View Post
Does DLRK change the kV if same number of winds used as ABC?

I've been flying an 8t 23g motor which was wound ABC connected delta. Good speed and power but it seems to be hard on the esc. I'm thinking the DLRK might be a better way to go?
How many arms on the stator and how many magnets? As far as I know you cannot change a stator from ABC to DLRK unless you also change the magnet count.

http://www.powerditto.de/Kombinationstabelle.html

Looking at the table there, 12N8P could be ABC, 12N14P cannot be ABC (only DLRK or LRK). 9N6P and 9N12P could be ABC but you cannot to DLRK on a 9 arm stator.

Jack
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 07:00 PM
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Joined May 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
How many arms on the stator and how many magnets? As far as I know you cannot change a stator from ABC to DLRK unless you also change the magnet count.

http://www.powerditto.de/Kombinationstabelle.html

Looking at the table there, 12N8P could be ABC, 12N14P cannot be ABC (only DLRK or LRK). 9N6P and 9N12P could be ABC but you cannot to DLRK on a 9 arm stator.

Jack
I'm using a Turnigy 2730 motor for the rewind,12 arms.

I have both the 14P (from the 3000 kV motor) and the 16P (from the 1500 kV motor) housings available.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 10:41 PM
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Carmichael, CA
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14P will generally be easier on the esc, and more efficient as the RPM's get up there. What is this going in anyways?

Kev
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Old Jun 05, 2012, 05:28 AM
Winging it >
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Joined May 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truglodite View Post
14P will generally be easier on the esc, and more efficient as the RPM's get up there. What is this going in anyways?

Kev
Kev,

Going in a few different planes

A pbf speed contest plane
Little speed delta
HK EPO MK II Park Jet
Swifty, scratch built pylon type plane

The 8t ABC has worked well for a couple of guys but only using a Castle Creation esc.

Based on Jack's and your response I think DLRK would be better, and also the 14p housing. I s this correct?

Below is a video of adreher's X-Raycer with the 8t ABC. It does about 110 mph

Adam's X-Raycer ....fast.... (2 min 44 sec)
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Old Jun 05, 2012, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truglodite View Post
This one goes over 130mph:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=569B5h1fcpU

It's a 10P-6x2T-24awg-Y, which pulls 29A/11.26V with Nanotech 3s1000 45C packs, and lands barely warm.

The stator is basically 12 turns of 24awg, which isn't "very hard". Just keep things clean and tight as you go. A carefully polished T-pin held in a pin vise also really helps to make room for those last 1 or 2 turns. Dave's tut also has great advice about 'leaving slack near the transition turn'. Using this bit of advise is absolutely essential to pulling off a 12T-24awg dlrk.

Hacking 10p rotors is something a speed-RBW-rewinder should know. You're pretty much stuck below 120mph with 14p rotors. As RPM's climb up there, 10p becomes way more efficient and easier on the esc.

Kev
Hacking 10p rotors is something a speed-RBW-rewinder should know. You're pretty much stuck below 120mph with 14p rotors. As RPM's climb up there, 10p becomes way more efficient and easier on the esc.

Is there any information available on "hacking" a 10p rotor? Does this mean removing existing magnets and gluing in 10 larger magnets?
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