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Old Jun 08, 2012, 06:18 PM
Airliner Builder
WAGliderGuy's Avatar
United States, WA, Seattle
Joined Feb 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty-Gunn View Post
I hope they get this adopted as a new forum. Think about this... they have a new "RC Airliners" forum! Are you serious? A seperate forum for foamie airliners? Aren't these EDFs? Don't they belong in the EDF section? Besides, I've seen airliner threads in the scratch built foamies forums. They fit there just fine, for crying out loud.
Also, there is another flying wing forum called "Nurflugel". What was wrong with the flying wings forums? Those tailless wings fit in the flying wing forum just fine. Heck, they even fit in the scratchbuilt foamie forums, too. Did it really need to be created?
"3D Flying" "3D Foamies" Really? Both discuss 3D airplanes. Were both necessary?
Others get the forums they want. I think this one ought to be created. When I go to the Builders Workshop I don't see this forum dominated by scratch build threads. I see a lot of general discussion stuff. We want a dedicated scratch building forum for balsa planes. Can we get it?
Then why can't a scale balsa build fit in the scale electric (or fuel) forum? Why can't a giant scratchbuild fit into the giant electric (or fuel) forum? Why can't a balsa canopy mod fit into the builder's workshop

Ethan
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Old Jun 08, 2012, 08:33 PM
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epoxyearl's Avatar
United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
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There are two plans I know of,maybe three, that utilize 35 to 50 cc engines.The Bob Nelitz plans are totally scale,but tough around the wing mounting area.Some redesign by a scratch builder would be easy enough.-1/3 scale-12'

Balsa USA has one also,as a kit,or plans can be purchased separately.1/3 scale

Amr has a kit,available from Canada,is also 1/3 scale

Wendell Hostetler has plans for one,I think 120" Fiberglass cowls are available for all.
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Old Jun 08, 2012, 08:33 PM
My plans are in my blog
Rusty-Gunn's Avatar
Kotzebue, Alaska
Joined May 2006
5,416 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by WAGliderGuy View Post
Then why can't a scale balsa build fit in the scale electric (or fuel) forum? Ethan
If it's an ARF or RTF, then it can. If its a scratch build, the it can have it's own dedicated forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAGliderGuy View Post
Why can't a giant scratchbuild fit into the giant electric (or fuel) forum? Ethan
It can. But so do ARF and RTF giant scale, of which can't fit into a dedicated scratch build forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAGliderGuy View Post
Why can't a balsa canopy mod fit into the builder's workshop

Ethan
It can. It can also go in one's own scratch build thread.
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Old Jun 08, 2012, 09:35 PM
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Hey guys.it looks as if the news is spreading about the possibility of the new forum idea..There are good arguments,pro and con.
But you have to realise the basic premise here.....The rules state that we need fifty names of people who have voted yes,before an application is sent to the administrators,with those names.
They will then conduct their own poll,in which at least 75% of the votes must be yes.

The opposition will hope that they can maneuver more than 25% nay votes to prohibit the forums' birth.
We'll hope just as fervently to maintain a 75% positive interest.

I'll interject here,that,it's amazing to see the number of information outlets on RCGroups,and also to see how so many model builders will object to another model builder's plan to share wisdom and experience with said builders.
Especially since we/they seem to have no problem locating the information we/they want.It seems there are different definitions of 'confusion'.What one person navigates easily,another has difficulty finding his way through.Which is exactly what we want to avoid.
I'm not aware of how difficult it was to start an "Airliners"forum,but if they had such opposition,then Kudos are due them..
However-Since they weren't relegated to the "Builder's Workshop" even as they are called builders,directing the next forum there seems to have little merit.
Expanding that theory,ALL BUILDERS should be directed to the "Builder's Workshop", All ARFs andRTFs to a single forum,and all used buyers to a third!

But-that's never going to happen.So putting the Balsa and lite ply scratch and kit builds into it's own forum makes perfect sense...All facets of building from Balsa and liteply,as a scratch or kit build will be at one location.All the forums seem to wander off topic a bit because people are people..and sometimes one thought reminds you of another,which may clarify a point not labelled in the title.

Let's make an example;someone asks for the best glue for laminating plywood,and we say"epoxy"-not in the title,but necessary to the build.-suppose a newbie asks "what's the best way to mix it"?-I 'eyeball it'-others may weigh it to the gram.-Here's where it'll go off topic...."where do I get a scale to weigh it"?
-He has to be answered...we're trying to help him,remember, so threads can go off topic quickly,and innocently.

You and I can deal with that,but the forum policeman is looking for infractions,and now he's upset.So he has to report it....How did this get from builders helping builders,to earning points? I'd suggest that a precedent has been set,that a forum is a general guideline,with flexible boundaries-but I certainly draw the line at women's shoes. G'nite all.
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Old Jun 08, 2012, 09:42 PM
Flying Low
cbarnes0061's Avatar
United States, VA, Petersburg
Joined Mar 2012
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well said
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Old Jun 08, 2012, 10:28 PM
My plans are in my blog
Rusty-Gunn's Avatar
Kotzebue, Alaska
Joined May 2006
5,416 Posts
I agree, well said.

Women's shoes? Women's shoes? We don't need no stinkin' women's shoes (pun not intended.)
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 04:00 AM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,664 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by epoxyearl View Post
Hey guys.it looks as if the news is spreading about the possibility of the new forum idea..There are good arguments,pro and con.
But you have to realise the basic premise here.....The rules state that we need fifty names of people who have voted yes,before an application is sent to the administrators,with those names.
They will then conduct their own poll,in which at least 75% of the votes must be yes.

The opposition will hope that they can maneuver more than 25% nay votes to prohibit the forums' birth.
We'll hope just as fervently to maintain a 75% positive interest.

I'll interject here,that,it's amazing to see the number of information outlets on RCGroups,and also to see how so many model builders will object to another model builder's plan to share wisdom and experience with said builders.
Especially since we/they seem to have no problem locating the information we/they want.It seems there are different definitions of 'confusion'.What one person navigates easily,another has difficulty finding his way through.Which is exactly what we want to avoid.
I'm not aware of how difficult it was to start an "Airliners"forum,but if they had such opposition,then Kudos are due them..
However-Since they weren't relegated to the "Builder's Workshop" even as they are called builders,directing the next forum there seems to have little merit.
Expanding that theory,ALL BUILDERS should be directed to the "Builder's Workshop", All ARFs andRTFs to a single forum,and all used buyers to a third!

But-that's never going to happen.So putting the Balsa and lite ply scratch and kit builds into it's own forum makes perfect sense...All facets of building from Balsa and liteply,as a scratch or kit build will be at one location.All the forums seem to wander off topic a bit because people are people..and sometimes one thought reminds you of another,which may clarify a point not labelled in the title.

Let's make an example;someone asks for the best glue for laminating plywood,and we say"epoxy"-not in the title,but necessary to the build.-suppose a newbie asks "what's the best way to mix it"?-I 'eyeball it'-others may weigh it to the gram.-Here's where it'll go off topic...."where do I get a scale to weigh it"?
-He has to be answered...we're trying to help him,remember, so threads can go off topic quickly,and innocently.

You and I can deal with that,but the forum policeman is looking for infractions,and now he's upset.So he has to report it....How did this get from builders helping builders,to earning points? I'd suggest that a precedent has been set,that a forum is a general guideline,with flexible boundaries-but I certainly draw the line at women's shoes. G'nite all.
It got from discussing the proposal - which is what this forum and this thread is for - to earning points when certain posters decided to make the issue personal and to break the forum rules in doing so.
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 07:36 AM
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epoxyearl's Avatar
United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
9,121 Posts
Okay-we have been discussing definitions,generally ,lately.
Last night ,at our club eat 'n fly,Rich brought out his new 8' Telemaster.Rich is a well rounded builder,for many years..His stable includes rubber power to 100cc giants.
The after-flight discussion included his build.He had bought stock balsa sheet and strip to build with,as most of us do.
He had the wing ribs laser cut,by a fledgling company in the Midwest.

Should we discuss this combination of building in the new forum? Can this be defined as a "scratch" build? How far will we go to limit the exposure of mixed building to newbies wanting to learn?
We accept that very few folks saw their own balsa trees,so we buy 'preformed' materials,which is acceptable.Will we establish laser cutting as 'normal' in a scratch build?

What I'm trying to determine is, do we limit laser cutting to just kits,or accept the freedom of options in scratch building?

I have my answer already-we want to hear yours.
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 07:52 AM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,664 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by epoxyearl View Post
Okay-we have been discussing definitions,generally ,lately.
Last night ,at our club eat 'n fly,Rich brought out his new 8' Telemaster.Rich is a well rounded builder,for many years..His stable includes rubber power to 100cc giants.
The after-flight discussion included his build.He had bought stock balsa sheet and strip to build with,as most of us do.
He had the wing ribs laser cut,by a fledgling company in the Midwest.

Should we discuss this combination of building in the new forum? Can this be defined as a "scratch" build? How far will we go to limit the exposure of mixed building to newbies wanting to learn?
We accept that very few folks saw their own balsa trees,so we buy 'preformed' materials,which is acceptable.Will we establish laser cutting as 'normal' in a scratch build?

What I'm trying to determine is, do we limit laser cutting to just kits,or accept the freedom of options in scratch building?

I have my answer already-we want to hear yours.
You've just illustrated the dichotomies that result from attempting to be so prescriptive as to propose a "balsa and lite-ply only builders forum".

In the rush to avoid having to sear one's eyeballs with the existence of, shock, horror, something in the forum which isn't exactly in line with the purist view, one ends up with notions such as asking "can we have laser cut parts in kits, or can we also "allow" them in scratch builds?". What about if the scratch builder has his own laser or CNC cutting rig in his workshop? What if he sends the jobfile out to a cutting agency?

What possible difference does it make?
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 08:23 AM
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United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
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I'm making an effort to please you....So much of what goes on in this discussion seems so upsetting to you,that we don't want to further your discomfort.

So let me get this straight-are you comfortable with using laser cut parts,no matter what their origin,in a scratch built model? You answered a question,with a question,which is not definitive.

Do you or do you not approve of laser cut parts,in a scratch built project? It's not an essay.....Yes,or No will be accepted as a complete answer.

I get the idea that "purists" are low on your list,yet you're pushing for high standards of compliance in something as simple as a forum application.-I don't have any problem with that.This is not my forum idea.But I do approve of it.I have gone back and reviewed the rules,as you suggested. With your continued help,we'll probably get it right ,eventually.

We're trying to lay some ground rules here,so if a point is taken on a particular post,there needs to be a rule to refer to.If some rules are too strict,they can be modified.

So rather than modify rules,we'll do our best to generate plausible ones with what I like to call "flexible boundaries".. We will be allowed to waltz off the path a little to clarify a point,or express an opinion,without it's being pointed out that opinion is not necessarily that of the sponsor.
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 08:51 AM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,664 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by epoxyearl View Post
I'm making an effort to please you....So much of what goes on in this discussion seems so upsetting to you,that we don't want to further your discomfort.
I am neither upset, nor discomforted. It is a discussion about a proposal for a new forum, what's to get upset about.

You need to stop trying to make things personal. Address the issue in the abstract, rather than on a personal basis.

Quote:
So let me get this straight-are you comfortable with using laser cut parts,no matter what their origin,in a scratch built model? You answered a question,with a question,which is not definitive.
I'm seeking why anyone would even think it was an issue. It is just a tool. It is akin to asking whether it would be acceptable to use preformed balsa leading edge mouldings, or triangle stock.

Quote:
Do you or do you not approve of laser cut parts,in a scratch built project? It's not an essay.....Yes,or No will be accepted as a complete answer.
Sorry, I don;t do yes or no answers. I've already described circumstances under which the distinction would be ridiculous and, since the proposal for this forum is for kit and scratch builds then the issue is already moot. If someone wants to call a model built using laser cut ribs that they sent a jobfile off to an agency a scratchbuilt model, or a partkit-built model, what difference would it make? If they cut the ribs themselves with a CNC set up, would that be scratchbuilding? If not, why not, it;s no difference eally than using a scroll-sawI. It;s just a tool.

Quote:
I get the idea that "purists" are low on your list,yet you're pushing for high standards of compliance in something as simple as a forum application.-I don't have any problem with that.
I'm pointing out the needs for a standard of compliance in a forum application because those standards are clearly laid out in the stickies at the head of this forum and it has been demonstrated that the proliferation of duplicate forums has negatively affected the usability of the forums. It is a recurring theme. Someone comes up with a forum suggestion - typically someone who has only just joined RC Groups - without thinking the thing through or even investigating whether a suitable forum already exists.

In this case the logic also appears to include the element - "Well the foamie lot have their own forum, we should have ours as well" - which ignores the historical basis for how that ended up in that way. The basic forum structure is made up of categorising forums by the model type and function, rather than the construction methods used.

Back in the very early days the original foamies forum was created, because the techniques used were rather different than traditional aeromodelling. All of the other forums were, by default, dominated by traditional balsa/ply builds..


[quote]
This is not my forum idea.But I do approve of it.I have gone back and reviewed the rules,as you suggested. With your continued help,we'll probably get it right ,eventually. {/quote]

To clarify, the rules that I was talking about being broken, and accruing points, are the rules against personal attacks, trolling and other disruptive and unacceptable behaviour. Nobody is going to get any points for not fully following the procedure for proposing a new forum. The worst that would happen is that the application would be void and may need to be resubmitted/ It is also worth noting that at any time that the management decide that the idea is so good that it can short-cut the process, that can happen, and has, on occasion.

Quote:
We're trying to lay some ground rules here,so if a point is taken on a particular post,there needs to be a rule to refer to.If some rules are too strict,they can be modified.

So rather than modify rules,we'll do our best to generate plausible ones with what I like to call "flexible boundaries".. We will be allowed to waltz off the path a little to clarify a point,or express an opinion,without it's being pointed out that opinion is not necessarily that of the sponsor.
Again, the forum for what is being described in this proposal already exists and has done for a decade. It is The Builder's Workshop forum.
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 08:58 AM
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United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
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Just got an e-mail from a strong opinioned individual whose sentiments lie as follows: You tell me how to do it,-I'll decide WHAT to do ! An eclectic build with him,is perfectly okay.

Maybe I went overboard on the limits.'Way back at the beginning I stated that my impression of a scratch build was a project you made as much of as you could do without"outside interference" I allowed as to how you didn't have to make your own engine,or landing gears,tanks,pushrods and hinges etc.

That still holds true-I want to build balsa and plywood cowls,he wants to buy fiberglass ones.I want to pull my own canopies,he wants to buy 'em..Okay-in the forum,we're going to show you how to make the parts,if you want....But if you want to buy bolt-ons,that's cool also.-Laser cut parts included.

Well-this is just getting easier !
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 09:08 AM
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kingconsulting's Avatar
United States, CA, Long Beach
Joined Sep 2011
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Earl we were supposed to ignore Let the gas can run dry and you can't start fires.

By the way another vote.

If I take my own design and convert it for a laser cutter I would say that is still from scratch? I know it's on the edge but the forum will, as you said, there will be areas of distinction that need to be made. Would laser cutting be more like a kit? If it is your design I don't think so.

Would this forum include building from plans as acceptable? Would be more toward the kit area I guess?

Robert

Quote:
Originally Posted by epoxyearl View Post
Okay-we have been discussing definitions,generally ,lately.
Last night ,at our club eat 'n fly,Rich brought out his new 8' Telemaster.Rich is a well rounded builder,for many years..His stable includes rubber power to 100cc giants.
The after-flight discussion included his build.He had bought stock balsa sheet and strip to build with,as most of us do.
He had the wing ribs laser cut,by a fledgling company in the Midwest.

Should we discuss this combination of building in the new forum? Can this be defined as a "scratch" build? How far will we go to limit the exposure of mixed building to newbies wanting to learn?
We accept that very few folks saw their own balsa trees,so we buy 'preformed' materials,which is acceptable.Will we establish laser cutting as 'normal' in a scratch build?

What I'm trying to determine is, do we limit laser cutting to just kits,or accept the freedom of options in scratch building?

I have my answer already-we want to hear yours.
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 09:12 AM
Flying Low
cbarnes0061's Avatar
United States, VA, Petersburg
Joined Mar 2012
615 Posts
Ok onto what this thread is about. how bout some more pics of my scratch build. This is the fuse coming together on a Cap 232. Hopefully will have both sides glued up by the end of the weekend. don't have much time though as I'm working all weekend.
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 09:15 AM
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cbarnes0061's Avatar
United States, VA, Petersburg
Joined Mar 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingconsulting View Post
Earl we were supposed to ignore Let the gas can run dry and you can't start fires.

By the way another vote.

If I take my own design and convert it for a laser cutter I would say that is still from scratch? I know it's on the edge but the forum will, as you said, there will be areas of distinction that need to be made. Would laser cutting be more like a kit? If it is your design I don't think so.

Would this forum include building from plans as acceptable? Would be more toward the kit area I guess?

Robert
I say it is still scratch built as you designed it.
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