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Old Oct 21, 2010, 09:43 PM
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Fort Worth, Texas
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It sure would be nice if we had some new meat (plane('s)) to talk about?

We had a race in Fort Worth Sunday with enough pilots for four rounds filling two heats each. That was fun. Have there been any other races around?
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Old Oct 21, 2010, 09:44 PM
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Fort Worth, Texas
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Got the AMA mag yesterday, Good write up on EF1 and the Pogo. Heck, it was five full pages in the center!!
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Old Oct 24, 2010, 08:34 PM
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United States, CA, Lake Forest
Joined Feb 1999
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I just saw the AMA article too. Very nice write up... only one minor error. Robert Van Den Bosch is an Ex F3D world champ and has never competed in F5D. It's ok Jerry, we know what you meant.
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 01:03 AM
DHG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBA-FW View Post
It sure would be nice if we had some new meat (planes) to talk about?
FWIW, I'm working on a Loki. It's going slowly, but I'm about to post some more pics under "EF-1 Loki Design/Build Thread".

I have no doubt it will fly great. I don't know when it will be done, or if I'll have plans or kits available before spring. I always seem to bite off more than I can chew. Right now I'm slamming to get ready for a big slimer fest, the NMPRA Q040 Champs in Phoenix in 2 weeks. So much time, so little to do!

Cheers,

Duane
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 03:30 PM
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Canada, ON, Orangeville
Joined Mar 2006
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Nemesis EF 1

Some photos of a Alien Technologies Nemesis I just have finished, hope to test fly before we get snow up here Ontario.

Ken
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 03:58 PM
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Looks great Ken! Can't wait for the flight report.
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 04:07 PM
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USA, TX, Midland
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That does look good. Did you mold the cowl yourself, or are the available now?
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 04:14 PM
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Canada, ON, Orangeville
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Originally Posted by Alien_Tech View Post
Looks great Ken! Can't wait for the flight report.
Thanks Red Will follow up with a flight report.
Ken
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JFisher304 View Post
That does look good. Did you mold the cowl yourself, or are the available now?
Check with Alien Tech, I got mine from him.
Ken
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 10:47 PM
c/f
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Crazy idea perhaps

Loved the article as well,..........

I think with this new class and not dealing with race day powerplant configurations as e-power and as close to a governed powerplant, It might be time for something like this.

http://www.nmpra.org/rules/EF1NewRules_3_%5B1%5D.pdf

Specifically IV D Power systems, max 4s, max 325g with plugs, 1250KV, Props of max 8" dia, Max 9" pitch.

This is very close, since electrics is all absolute formulas, and resistance of brand equipment mixing still is a wild card, some setups will eventually rise to the top, negating resistance variables consider that 1250KV is 12500rpms @ 10VDC, no load, that in itself is a pretty good governor, since a props is a load, so max theoretcial coarse time is possible to calculate, Consider my best case formula which I find linearity true to all my setups 5oz foamies to
15lb 12s 4500W setups, on any battery brand premium, or good as premium.

"10 grams of battery weight reguardless of cell count, will output under load 25 watts of power". So for example 325g nets 812 watts, here again a good absolute governor.

So now we look at amps X volts = watts. we know the watts potential/ we know the volts potential, amps come along for the ride, 58 amps under load, I like the setup, so now we put 812 watts into "A" prop yet to be determined, is the only thing I wish would lock it in, if you spec out a one prop rule you have really nailed down all variables to a pretty good IROC class on powerplants, when all things are equal here, airframe drag becomes another big variable.

So if your local area still had skeptics on fairness come race day consider this: My buddy races go karts with his son, to keep it fun and people growing and learning without discouragment, before a heat they must declare within say 3 seconds what their best finish time would be, winning a heat and breaking out beyond declared time is disqualification for the round. With this logic you can group like racers together better to get some really tight racing and push people outside there comfort zones without unfair advantage claims. You need only one start watch at the begining to insure that all are @ or over a specific time that was declared. A few race practice days should get them up to speed fast and encourage even the slowest if they know they are paired with people of same skillsets.

Wow bronze/silver/gold to finish a great day of racing and I can envision talking some new blood into racing at all skill levels. .02
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 06:49 AM
NY Slope Dog
Wind Junkie's Avatar
Syracuse, NY
Joined Sep 2003
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esc governor

Please forgive me, I wish to revisit a topic posted in March which will show my ignorance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvdb View Post
...
If we use a gouvenour mode on the ESC ,a fixed max RPM, and a prescribed prop we can controll the speed of the planes , no speed creap , and the efficienty of the motor , ESC and batterys don't matter any more.
...
Robbert
I saw Steve's response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneu View Post
A closed loop governor setup would have to be tuned for each motor. If you don't, you end up with a setup that surges in flight. Too difficult to deal with--more inspections and checking to ensure that people don't cheat the system.

IMHO rules for racing should not be designed to give equal results--only equal opportunity.

Would you suggest that the pilot that does the homework and selects and tests a power setup is somehow doing something that is not fair. Practice and hard work should be rewarded.

Steve Neu

I don't understand the ramifications implied by Steve's response.

To pitch EF1 in my locale, I'd like to propose a spec class with these (and only these items):

1) Pogo (or equivalent)
2) Spec prop (ie, APC DxP TBD)
3) ESC governed to TBD max RPM

Seems to me it would be possible for ESC manufacturers to offer pre-programmed EF1 Spec ESCs which hold max RPM regardless of battery (or even motor if possible) specs.

The ICE series allows graphing of RPM, so doesn't this mean the ESC is capable of controlling MAX RPM? To address Steve's point, what must be "tuned?" Aren't heli flyers now using the ICE controllers to achieve constant RPM? What is the real issue?

I guess I'm also asking if the RPM graphing presentation software needs to know other motor parameters to calculate RPM post flight, or if sensing RPM can be done with ANY motor by the ESC in flight. Even if I needed a 4th spec (specific motor) it would be attractive to eliminate battery quality (and even cell count) from the list of variables. That would be a HUGE selling point in getting local interest.

What am I missing here?
thanks,
Joe
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 02:14 PM
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United States, CA, San Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind Junkie View Post
Please forgive me, I wish to revisit a topic posted in March which will show my ignorance:



I saw Steve's response:




I don't understand the ramifications implied by Steve's response.

To pitch EF1 in my locale, I'd like to propose a spec class with these (and only these items):

1) Pogo (or equivalent)
2) Spec prop (ie, APC DxP TBD)
3) ESC governed to TBD max RPM

Seems to me it would be possible for ESC manufacturers to offer pre-programmed EF1 Spec ESCs which hold max RPM regardless of battery (or even motor if possible) specs.

The ICE series allows graphing of RPM, so doesn't this mean the ESC is capable of controlling MAX RPM? To address Steve's point, what must be "tuned?" Aren't heli flyers now using the ICE controllers to achieve constant RPM? What is the real issue?

I guess I'm also asking if the RPM graphing presentation software needs to know other motor parameters to calculate RPM post flight, or if sensing RPM can be done with ANY motor by the ESC in flight. Even if I needed a 4th spec (specific motor) it would be attractive to eliminate battery quality (and even cell count) from the list of variables. That would be a HUGE selling point in getting local interest.

What am I missing here?
thanks,
Joe
The max RPM is set with the throttle on the transmitter--not in the controller and the set point is dependent on the number of poles the motor has.

You might as well give up on trying to make rules that assure everything is "equal". Anyone that has raced knows too well that it is an impossible goal and it is better to set up rules that give reasonable limits and let people be creative and come up their own solutions. Life is not equal--



Steve Neu
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 03:13 PM
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In my first EF1 race it seemed as though all the planes, regardless of their setup, battery, or airframe, fly almost identical in speed. Ultimately in the race the people who won were flying tighter courses.

I ran the eflight stuff w 8x8 prop while some others ran the turingy set up with a 8x6 prop.
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Old Nov 01, 2010, 12:00 AM
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United States, WA, Tacoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnychimpo View Post
In my first EF1 race it seemed as though all the planes, regardless of their setup, battery, or airframe, fly almost identical in speed. Ultimately in the race the people who won were flying tighter courses.

I ran the eflight stuff w 8x8 prop while some others ran the turingy set up with a 8x6 prop.
exactly the same we noticed, came down to the pilot flying the course, we did notice that the 8x6 on the eflight motor was slower than the 8x8 but the 8x6 was consistant throught the whole 10laps, with the 8x8 its seemed to slow downa little about lap 7 or so. we had several brands of batteries turnegy to hyperions no noticeable speed difference again came down to pilot.

we decided to ran a 3 pole course 500ft between 2/3 and 1, seemed to be a happy medium for new pilots getting into the sport and fun for expericenced, we may change but thats what we are running with at this point
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Old Nov 01, 2010, 02:16 AM
NY Slope Dog
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Syracuse, NY
Joined Sep 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneu View Post
The max RPM is set with the throttle on the transmitter--not in the controller and the set point is dependent on the number of poles the motor has.

You might as well give up on trying to make rules that assure everything is "equal". Anyone that has raced knows too well that it is an impossible goal and it is better to set up rules that give reasonable limits and let people be creative and come up their own solutions. Life is not equal--

Steve Neu
I'm sorry, but I don't think you answered my question. I asked is if an ESC was capable of knowing the RPM of the motor and what is required to govern it knowing a given max RPM should map to a given TX commanded full throttle pulse width (say, 2 msec, and clip or auto scale to max value as needed). Did you mean to say the number of poles will differ among different model/brand motors and that must be known by the ESC to interpret a numerical RPM value?

I raced 428 Q500 for several years. I'm used to showing up on race day and buying my fuel from the common jug. I think it would be nice to have a spec class where I simply weigh my (common ARF with my common ESC and common motor if needed) airplane and buy only my prop, or submit mine for a prop lottery.

Your attitude is defeatist. Surely with today's technology what I'm desiring should be possible at least to a first order. I'm not saying all EF1 should be run this way, but for an entry level spec class, surely we can eliminate a lot of variables, and the motor and battery seem logical targets if we have the ability to skip right to the chase.

Let the experts run faster planes with no governors, but I'd like to invite anyone with their tired old motors and batteries to a race and not have to point out how "life isn't equal."

Joe Chovan
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