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Old Dec 27, 2009, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Truglodite View Post
As expected, performance wasn't stunning....

Keep in mind, this setup should be run on 3s; with Brian's setup we're talking 5.4A at about 8V (max), or about 45W input with Brian's plane.
I knew that guys.

We're trying to avoid buying 3s packs. If you saw our collection of lipos and other planes, you'd understand why.

Cheers,
Kevin
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Old Dec 28, 2009, 12:35 AM
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Motrolfly DM2203-2200 Bench Test

Drum-roll please...

Motrolfly DM2203 - 2200

TP 3s730 PL2 (store charged)
29m alt / 16.5C temp
No Load: 11.41V / 1.05A / 24430RPM
Raw Kv = 2141
GWS 5043HD: 10.46V / 9.33A / 16323RPM / 12.1oz / 55.5% effy

TP 2s910 PL2 (store charged)
29m alt / 16.5C temp
No Load: 7.62V / 0.87A / 16403RPM
Raw Kv = 2153
GWS 5043HD: 7.26V / 5.69A / 12501RPM / 7.6oz / 62.4% effy

Static thrust and efficiency are from badcock.net. Data came from my calibrated Eagle Tree (against my BK309 DMM).

It gets close to breaking past a 10A esc on 3s. I wish I had more props drilled out, but I figured it would be for naught. I'm taking these numbers with a grain of salt, and I definitely plan on rewinding. Don't be too dismayed guys; I recently rewound an eflite park250. It's a similar motor stock, but after rewinding it perked up to be quite a nasty little bugger; effy went from the mid 60's stock, to over 80!

I'll let you guys know how it goes when I get there. Should be interesting. The flux ring is a bit thin, but it is a motrolfly... there's got to be a lot of umph hiding in there.

Cheers,
Kevin

[edit: After a closer look, there appears to be a lot more room for some good ole' Cu in that stator. I noticed the Io was high compared to the specs on Ken's website, so perhaps the bearings need to be washed of the sticky grease and oiled with some good lightweight synthetic. That would probably drop Io a bit, but I'm thinking rewinding is going to be my saving grace (Brian's too ).

...update: I unwound... each phase has 40" long 28awg terminated Delta. Actually, it calipered 0.31mm, and 28awg is 0.32mm, but close enough for the girls we date. This amounts to a Cu cross section of 1.84mm^2. I'm going to start with 17T-24awg, but may have to fall back to 25awg depending on how it goes.

Rewound & tested-----------------------------------------------

Motrolfly 2203-17T-25awg-Delta
TP 2s910 PL2 (store charged)
29m alt / 16.5C temp
No Load: 7.65V / 0.74A / 22427RPM
Raw Kv = 2932
GWS 5043HD: 6.83V / 10.26A / 15451RPM / 11.6oz / 66.3% effy

Too much for a 10A esc, especially with a fully charged pack. Efficiency is definitely improved at this power level. Thrust is closing in on the stock 3s setup, but with much better efficiency. Overall I'd say it's a decent 2s motor now, and it is on par with my 11T-24awg-Y hex 16 gram. Being a Motrolfly, besides superior balance and machining, it has much more robust bearings/shaft/...etc. So if I were to choose I'd take this rewound 2203 over the hex. Of course, from a rewinders perspective, this 3-layer wind (8-7-2) was far more difficult than the hex, and I was left with a nm of clearance between the windings and rotor disc. Can't fit more copper in, and I wonder how much worse 26awg would be, considering that would be a much easier wind.

Since Brian and I plan on keeping it under 10A, I'll have to try winding for slightly lower Kv. I'm thinking 10T-24awg-Y for 2860Kv, maybe 23awg if it squeezes in 2-layers.

Sorry guys, I feel I'm getting way OT on this YB thread. I'll stop here, and future updates will be in the motor d&c thread.

Thanks for listening,
Kevin]

[edit2: I later realized this was all due to low timing on my esc. Middle timing made the DM2203 kick arse!!! Read here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...8#post14754365
]
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Old Dec 29, 2009, 02:25 PM
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Omaha Nebraska
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No load current

Kevin,

Your IO is high and is probably due to the shaft being pressed in too tight against the back bearing. I found this on some and corected them, but yours may have slipped by. I would say to loosen and check, but you have already rewound it.

Ken
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Old Dec 29, 2009, 07:54 PM
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Ken, I did loosen and check early on, before cleaning, oiling, and rewinding; I just forgot to mention that. After loosining, I noticed the shaft was still spinning in the inner bearing race, even when I applied a radial load after loosening the fit. That's why I concluded that sticky grease was the main cause of the high Io.

The bearing grease is really a non-issue IMHO. We do see a significant drop in Io after I blew the grease out with motor cleaner and added a drop of 5w-30 Mobil1 full synthetic.

That said, I'm sure most of your customers won't be cleaning and oiling their new motors. Even if they wanted to, some would not have the correct tools to blow the grease out properly. So it would be a good idea to change the factory spec from grease to lightweight oil. I'd also like to see thicker wire, but I'm not the guy who winds these for a living.

FWIW, if the weather cooperates this Sunday, Brian and I will test fly our rewound motors with 5030 props. Of course this means less thrust than the 5043 (~9oz @8A vs 12oz @10A), but I have a feeling performance will be adequate considering Brian's mini f-22 was almost vertical during maiden with a mere 5.5oz thrust. I'll keep you posted, and hopefully we'll get some video if my camera doesn't cop out again.

Cheers,
Kevin

[edit: I finally read through the whole thread, and with all the talk about the motor I felt the necessity to comment more on the plane...

Rick, you've done an awesome job with your mini kits. I won't comment on the $100 combo, since I'm strapped like everyone else these days and have to dig deeper to make my planes fly for less $$$. Like others have mentioned earlier in this thread, sure, I could probably scratch one for less, but to be honest I haven't had this much fun building a kit in a long time. After about 1hr of work (including glue dry time and painting) my f-15 is looking sweet... ready for stickers and electronics. The milled foam assembles soooo fast and true. No doubt the yb kit saved me money... time=money hard times or not. It would take me at least 2hrs to print, splice, cut, trace, and cut foam to get to the same point as the kit I opened last weekend. Notice I haven't even included the price of foam and CF. I'm nowhere close to a millionaire, but I certainly make more money at my job than that.

The only gripes I have with the kit are minor IMO: 1) the included quick links are way too bulky (are they 1/4 scale rated? lol), use the smaller aluminum ones that we're all used to, and 2) is it too much to ask that the foam dust be blown off before packaging?

One more gripe that is more of a builders taste than anything... I wouldn't recommend screwing down the CF control rods directly in the quick links... crunch. Perhaps piano wire would be better for most ppl; myself, I typically use cf rods with an inch of piano wrapped on the end.

FWIW, Brian's f-22, with the whole underside painted grey, turned out with an AUW of 5.4oz with 2s730. So to answer a few early posts, yes, I think good performance from 2s500 20C is feasible. To add to this, Brian did have to cut foam a little to scoot the battery forward for CG, but it's still hidden behind the intakes. I'll probably do some cutting to the same effect on my mini f-15... I'll post some pics and video once I have it ironed out... this thread desperately needs video... the slow vectored thrust like moves are so cool!]
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Old Dec 30, 2009, 11:02 PM
ids911
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Have just finished the mini F15 assembly and looking for radio setup advice, anyone using a DX7?
Any setup advice would be welcome before the madien flight
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Old Dec 31, 2009, 10:25 PM
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Truglodite,

The wire being used is single strand so anything larger for a given Kv is not possible in production.

Wish you would have flown it stock with the 3s battery, it is very powerful.

Ken
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Old Jan 01, 2010, 12:06 AM
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I understand Ken, I can see how it is a "production" wind. Truth be told, I had some 3s480's and one 3s730 myself, Brian didn't have any 3s in that category. Our biggest problem with 3s is we are using 10A esc's, and 3s 5043 stock is pushing it IMO. Not just the esc, but the motor as well; I calculated 43W of heat dissipated stock on 3s, where as our rewound 2s versions dissipate 24W. That's still over 1W/gm dissipated, which is where I like to live, but your design has exceptional cooling. So I can live with our 2s setups, especially considering we're only missing out on 1/2oz thrust by going our own road.

Maybe when we get bored and have more money, we'll sport more 3s packs capable of doing the 2200kv 5043 thing. Of course, I'll have to try 26awg or something a little less "production".

Cheers,
Kevin
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Old Jan 01, 2010, 05:45 PM
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Motor and ESC can handle the amps when used I a pusher jet where there is always forward movement. In a 3D application it may be questionable.
A lot of thought was put in to the power system.

Ken
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Old Jan 01, 2010, 08:41 PM
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5043 would be more fun than 5030; the higher pitch should give way more "vectoring" authority. I hate to bank on significant unloading with anything <60mph, but that is an overly generic rule, and our static draw is low enough for these planes I suppose. Neither of us are "WOT" type's anyways, so I think we'll be OK. Plus I'm using a Chinese 10A esc that is known to handle 12A, and Brian's Phoenix 10 has a current limiter.

I have no doubt you put a lot of thought (and testing) in to this setup. Please understand my concern; during summer where we live it can get very hot outside (100F+ is common). I've seen a few similar setups that worked fine from fall to spring, only to let out smoke while being pushed vertical with a new pack during the dog days of summer. Of course as they say, we'll know for sure when we get there.

On a side note, have you tried winding a 23T-26awg... for personal use? I'm curious if it'll fit, since I have no 27awg to play with. Just thinking in to the future.

Cheers,
Kevin
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Old Jan 01, 2010, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ids911 View Post
Have just finished the mini F15 assembly and looking for radio setup advice, anyone using a DX7?
Any setup advice would be welcome before the madien flight
I haven't maidened my f-15 yet, but I'll let you know what rates I settle on after Sunday.

My buddy is using a DX7 on his f-22. His linkage is setup all the way out on the horns and arms. He uses a common D/R switch for both ele and ail, with elevator 80 low and 100 high, and ailerons 70 low and 100 high. Even at 70% the roll rate was ~1/sec, and they weren't much faster at 100%. So it probably wouldn't hurt to drop ailerons more for the first few flights anyways. I'd probably keep high and low elevator rates at 100% to start. These things don't really stall, and they need lots of elevator deflection to get the nose up for a reasonably slow landing.

Kev

[edit: Just got my f-15 RTF, AUW = 5.55oz. Held in my hand it starts going vertical at just under 2/3 throttle on a storage charged 2s730 and the 5043, and at WOT it pulls hard out of my hand! I did have to make a small modification to move the pack forward about 1/2" for CG. To be sure, I'm using a rewound motor, not stock. This Sunday should be a blast!]

[Another update... finally a VIDEO!
The video processing took a huge toll on quality (cleaner video coming soon). Keep in mind this is my maiden, so my piloting is a bit substandard. I have to work out my rates and address a potential right yaw after a flight in no wind. Wind was blowing about 6-8mph. Above I mentioned keeping the elevator rates high, but with the extra power, I need to add more expo to make it less jerky. I was flying 100% elevator and aileron, which is about 45* for both. Doppler estimate is 45mph. Anyhow, without further ado...

Enjoy the film!

Yardbird Mini F-15 2-cell (8 min 6 sec)


Ken, this is OT, but I figured you might appreciate this video of your DM2210-2200 hauling Brian's Dart around in a hurry. That's got to be the smoothest sounding 100mph+ setup I've heard!:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1#post13975971
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Old Jan 04, 2010, 09:54 PM
ids911
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Ken,
Thanks for the info and nice flight there. I maidened the F15 before I got your message (break in the weather and too eager) flight went well, thou' you are right about lots of expo. The stock motor and battery just pulls out of the hands. Towards the end of the flight, I had trouble turning right, left no problem, think it may have been the battery nmoving and canged the COG.
This is going to be a fun plane, just zips along, even slows down very nice.
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Old Jan 05, 2010, 01:23 AM
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IDS, thanks for the tip. I'll have to try the "just let go launch" next time; I launched at 1/2 throttle and gave it a push since I wasn't sure how well it would "groove out".

I'm sure nobody is likely to rewind for 2s, but just in case... Brian's Phoenix 10 was hitting the current limiter during static testing with a full charge at WOT. I'm hoping that won't be an issue in flight; static pitch speed was 64mph, my F-15 was moving about 45-50mph, but it's the climb out that will cause problems if any. Brian wasn't able to fly his f-22 with the rewind due to very unfortunate circumstances, but we might test it this coming Sunday.

My impression is this plane is good at going fast, no doubt about that, but the real fun for me was in flying scale lines, and slower/3Dish maneuvers. It was weird how the roll rate was reduced at higher speeds, but I suppose that's a prop-in-the-slot thing that I'm just not used to yet. Lower pitch props aren't as fast, but they tend to feel more "consistent" when pulling hard G's, looping, and going vertical. So I'm thinking about trying the 5030 on my rig next time out. I'm sure efficiency will jump in to the 70's with that prop, so it probably won't feel so "mushy" after half of the pack is gone like it did with the 5043. If you listen carefully, you can hear WOT RPM drop a bit more than it should halfway through the video. FWIW, the 2s730 pack I flew took only 54mAh to store after the flight, so there was probably enough juice left for another 5min of flying.

Cheers,
Kevin
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Old Jan 07, 2010, 05:57 PM
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Wow!

Hey Truglodite, you were in direct violation of FAA regulations, no smoking within 50 feet of the aircraft.

ANyway, nice flight there. Those close up shots of the mini look normal except for that BIG A$$ square leading edge...makes it look kinda awkward. Otherwise, thats some kick a$$ looking fleet there.

Might have to try one of those myself.
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Old Jan 07, 2010, 10:45 PM
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Hey Truglodite, you were in direct violation of FAA regulations, no smoking within 50 feet of the aircraft.
I was trying to hide that from the fed by putting that big text box over it, but YouTube doesn't have opaque colors.

I know, the square LE is wrong, but I guess I was just lazy. Never too late to sand and sharpie though.
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Old Jan 11, 2010, 01:07 AM
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More 15 and 22 action...

First the good news:
Brian said his mini YB-22 flew great with the rewind and 5043... while the flight lasted. Too bad it didn't last long enough for me to see any of it.

Now the bad news:
I had my head down programming my transmitter while Brian and another one of our buddies, Rich, were flying. I looked up after I heard a thunderous "POP!", and saw his mini in a downward spiraling swansong! At first I though it was an in flight structural failure, but looking around the sky I saw Rich's rudder fluttering down in close proximity. DOH! We all stayed silent for what seemed like an eternity before both chunks of foam hit the dirt. Yep, a fatal midair collision between a mini F-22 and a large 3s2200 powered edf delta; you guess who won that battle. I wish I had a picture of the carnage; the 22 was broken in so many pieces that a rebuild would be for naught... Brian was a good sport about it though; said he wasn't mad at Rich, just mad that it happened. He 's looking forward to building with another kit, this time improving from what he learned on the first (including sanded LE's). On a lighter note, later on Brian managed to rear end Rich's Hyperflea with his Swift, causing damage to Rich's plane and leaving Brian's unscathed!!! Oh the chances! ...and the irony!

More bad news:
I flew my F-15 with the 5030 and it definitely needs the 5043. That's not the bad news though... I spent most of that pack trying to fix a problem with right yaw that made difficult to fly (no wind today, so I know it's not that). Moving the CG up didn't tame it, and elevator->aileron mixing couldn't force it to track straight in a loop. Sure enough, when I got home and checked the fins, they were way out of alignment. Referencing the carbons stick, the LE of the left fin was more than 1/8" to the left of where it should be, and the right fin LE was 1/16" to the right, which adds up to a strong right yaw among other things! I can assure you I installed the fins correctly centered in the tab/slots and tight against the fuse deck. In attempt to salvage this F-15, I cut the fin off flush with the fuse deck and glued it back, squaring off the carbon rod. I hope that cures the yaw problem, but I'll have to fly it to be sure. I'm not hoping for perfection at this point though, since the fuse sides are likely also out of alignment.

Rick, I'm wondering if something went wrong on the CNC. Can you check some of your F-15 kits to verify if the top fuse decks are milled similarly? I assume the out of square fin was not intentional, and the fact that ids911 is having similar problems with yaw points to a manufacturing defect.

Kevin
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