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Old Feb 16, 2012, 07:10 PM
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livonia bob's Avatar
United States, MI, Livonia
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Originally Posted by Runnikee View Post
Much better flight! Were the winds the same for the 2nd video as in the first? I think Indy Matt's suggestion for what happened in the first video seems to make sense.
OK now lets watch the middle flight. Look at what it did at 1:00 I didn't tell it to do that,, it's going down wind there has plenty of speed and it pulled up on it's own and did a flip. Battery should still have plenty of juice in it. Now notice how I don't really have any control over it at the end of the flight.. I don't think this is from a stall that I caused but more a stall that it is causing.. My gut feeling is after 57 years of flying models and 20 years of full scale even at my age and slow reflexes I would know that the plane is staled and would have full down elevator on it the whole time I was trying to get it down and as you can see she was in a nose high stall most of the way down.. Now this could be caused by it being tail heavy. I'm going to go ahead and make up the 400mAh batteries and try them..

GP F-86 Greenmead 2/16/12 2nd flight today (4 min 12 sec)
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 07:44 PM
R.C. Aviation Fanatic
Razors edge 29's Avatar
Canada
Joined Aug 2009
21,167 Posts
Bob

If it is tail heavy; its odd since the stock lipo is supposed to be perfect, which would lead me to believe foam density is off, or too much glue aft, or something?

Are the wing or stabs bent or warped? Tail incidence off maybe?

400's might make it way too nose heavy


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Originally Posted by livonia bob View Post
OK now lets watch the middle flight. Look at what it did at 1:00 I didn't tell it to do that,, it's going down wind there has plenty of speed and it pulled up on it's own. Battery should still have plenty of juice in it. Now notice how I don't really have any control over it at the end of the flight.. I don't think this is from a stall that I caused but more a stall that it is causing.. My gut feeling is after 57 years of flying models and 20 years of full scale even at my age and slow reflexes I would know that the plane is staled and would have full down elevator on it the whole time I was trying to get it down and as you can see she was in a nose high stall most of the way down.. Now this could be caused by it being tail heavy. I'm going to go ahead and make up the 400mAh batteries and try them..

http://vimeo.com/36929776
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 08:08 PM
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United States, MI, Livonia
Joined Apr 2009
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Originally Posted by Razors edge 29 View Post
Bob

If it is tail heavy; its odd since the stock lipo is supposed to be perfect, which would lead me to believe foam density is off, or too much glue aft, or something?

Are the wing or stabs bent or warped? Tail incidence off maybe?

400's might make it way too nose heavy
I have been watching and re-watching and watching again the video of the second flight. There is to much strange stuff going on in this flight to say it's a balance problem or a wind problem. I'm back to it's a radio problem.. Look at the flip it does starting at 1:00 that I didn't tell it to do any of that,, it was just a turn around to make another east bound pass. And watch the West bound low pass at around 3:00 it was to go into a climbing left hand turn at the end and then enter down wind heading East over the grassy area and not the sharp pull up and climb to a stall that it did. And once in the stall I couldn't break it with down elevator and power. I was able to keep it flying while it was tip stalling,, look at how high the nose is. I was able to nurse it around over the grass area and then right at the end I finally got control back and I was able to glide it over and land it in the grass where we normally land our landing gear less planes..

Now I just can't convince myself that as good as it was flying other wise and all my experience flying slow and low planes and my F-18 EDF that I every now and than with this one forget how to fly for seconds at a time..
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 08:46 PM
Crash and burn, huh Mav?
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USA, IN, Fort Wayne
Joined Aug 2010
995 Posts
This goes back to what has been talked about on the other (mean) thread about this plane. Maybe the AnyLink technology still has some bugs in it? I mean, if Bill Gates can't get things right on the first shot still, what makes people think Great Planes will get it right on the first try?
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 08:54 PM
Registered User
Indianapolis, IN
Joined Oct 2010
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Yeah I know you are an experienced flyer so that is why I caveated it. I did rewatch the middle and man that isn't good. I would at least call Hobbico and let them know you are having an issue. That way if this becomes widespread they know you are one of the ones with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by livonia bob View Post
I have been watching and re-watching and watching again the video of the second flight. There is to much strange stuff going on in this flight to say it's a balance problem or a wind problem. I'm back to it's a radio problem.. Look at the flip it does starting at 1:00 that I didn't tell it to do any of that,, it was just a turn around to make another east bound pass. And watch the West bound low pass at around 3:00 it was to go into a climbing left hand turn at the end and then enter down wind heading East over the grassy area and not the sharp pull up and climb to a stall that it did. And once in the stall I couldn't break it with down elevator and power. I was able to keep it flying while it was tip stalling,, look at how high the nose is. I was able to nurse it around over the grass area and then right at the end I finally got control back and I was able to glide it over and land it in the grass where we normally land our landing gear less planes..

Now I just can't convince myself that as good as it was flying other wise and all my experience flying slow and low planes and my F-18 EDF that I every now and than with this one forget how to fly for seconds at a time..
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 09:05 PM
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livonia bob's Avatar
United States, MI, Livonia
Joined Apr 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runnikee View Post
This goes back to what has been talked about on the other (mean) thread about this plane. Maybe the AnyLink technology still has some bugs in it? I mean, if Bill Gates can't get things right on the first shot still, what makes people think Great Planes will get it right on the first try?
I use the same TX and Anylink with the Fokker Dr-1 with no problems at all. But while that sort of rules out the actual Anylink box, but not the RX in the F-86.

I'm convincing myself that it's more than just my flying, or the planes balance or the wind causing this problem.

Now on the good note there wasn't a whole lot of damage to the plane even with 4 force landings/crashes on her..

Someone was asking about the wind,, keep in mind that between F-86 flights I was flying the Champ and the Fokker Dr-1. So if it was flyable for me with those two I would think that the F-86 shouldn't have any problem wind wise.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 09:20 PM
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United States, OH, Dayton
Joined Apr 2004
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Hey guys,
This is a great flyer but don't expect it to fly like a piper cub! If you fly it like a piper cub and start a climb without enough throttle or airspeed it will stall! The model will not respond to control input without airspeed and will stall like a swept wing jet. The fault is not the airframe or the Anylink.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 10:11 PM
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livonia bob's Avatar
United States, MI, Livonia
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Originally Posted by pdawg View Post
Hey guys,
This is a great flyer but don't expect it to fly like a piper cub! If you fly it like a piper cub and start a climb without enough throttle or airspeed it will stall! The model will not respond to control input without airspeed and will stall like a swept wing jet. The fault is not the airframe or the Anylink.
So after watching the video of my second flight today you think it has going to slow and it staled when it did that flip at 1:00??


I have it all fixed and ready to go but for one little problem,, one of the fan blades has a chip in it now.. So problem is solved she will not fly again so nothing to worry about..
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 10:19 PM
Crashy McLandington
Northern Colorado
Joined Dec 2005
590 Posts
Got one of these today. Very mixed review. On the one hand, it flies nice, for a little while. Carries a lot of speed for a little guy, I'd guess in the 35mph range? ROG was nice and easy, and at my elevation that's a big deal.

On the other hand, two flights and two crashes. At about 2/3 throttle, cruising level and a gentle left turn and it dove in. Sheared the left wing off about an inch from the fuse. A little packing tape, check all the controls, ok, battery looks good, cg still ok, off we go with a fresh charge. ROG, climb out to about 50 feet. Level out. Oh what's this, uncommanded pitch up?! Full down elevator- nothing- it's already stalled, chop the throttle cause she's going straight down. Broke the right wing off. It's going back to the LHS.

I use an older T9CHP which has never given me a single issue. The Anylink bound to the plane upon power up and all the throws were in the correct direction. But no motor initialization. The only way I could get the motor to work was reverse the channel, full stick for no throttle. Reverse it again and quickly pull the stick down to the bottom, then throttle works normally. You have to do this every time. I played with the subtrims and epa's.

This radio system has issues, I think.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 10:22 PM
LiPo-Sucker & Airframe EMT
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Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Joined Aug 2010
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Watching and waiting..........

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Old Feb 16, 2012, 10:23 PM
Editor - Flying Models
United States, CT
Joined Aug 2003
2,442 Posts
I don't think the wind is an issue either and am with pdawg on this one. Having logged a bunch of F-86 flights myself it really looks to me like you are just getting it too slow at times and stalling. The weird tumble thing looks a lot like my stalls where I poured on the power, held neutral elevator and waited for it to get going again. The elevator does nothing until the airframe is moving again because there is no prop blast. Do not hold any up,as you don't want to stall again immediately after regaining airspeed. Take it up high on a calm day and play with the stall a bunch. You will find it unlike most anything else you have flown when stalled.

Remember that you don't have to be going slow to stall. All you need to do is exceed the critical angle of attack, and that can happen at any speed. Pulling hard in a slow turn all but guarantees a stall as I am sure you recall from your primary training days.

I don't mean to talk down to anyone here, it is just that this model is an intro into an entirely new realm for most of us. Given that it weighs so little, it doesn't have the inertia to carry it through a near stall situation once the drag starts to build. Simple physics. Keep the power on, the fuselage close to level and you should be fine, as shown in the videos.

Bob, Futaba is well known to need throttle reversed for proper operation of an ESC. You should be able to reverse it in the transmitter once and then be fine. If not, I would have the radio checked.
Thayer
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Last edited by Thayer; Feb 16, 2012 at 10:28 PM. Reason: throttle note
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 10:34 PM
Crashy McLandington
Northern Colorado
Joined Dec 2005
590 Posts
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Originally Posted by Thayer View Post
Bob, Futaba is well known to need throttle reversed for proper operation of an ESC. You should be able to reverse it in the transmitter once and then be fine. If not, I would have the radio checked.
Thayer
The radio works fine on my trex heli's and all of my other planes.. I kind of doubt it only messes up when hooked to this little EDF pos
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 10:38 PM
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United States, MI, Livonia
Joined Apr 2009
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Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
Got one of these today. Very mixed review. On the one hand, it flies nice, for a little while. Carries a lot of speed for a little guy, I'd guess in the 35mph range? ROG was nice and easy, and at my elevation that's a big deal.

On the other hand, two flights and two crashes. At about 2/3 throttle, cruising level and a gentle left turn and it dove in. Sheared the left wing off about an inch from the fuse. A little packing tape, check all the controls, ok, battery looks good, cg still ok, off we go with a fresh charge. ROG, climb out to about 50 feet. Level out. Oh what's this, uncommanded pitch up?! Full down elevator- nothing- it's already stalled, chop the throttle cause she's going straight down. Broke the right wing off. It's going back to the LHS.

I use an older T9CHP which has never given me a single issue. The Anylink bound to the plane upon power up and all the throws were in the correct direction. But no motor initialization. The only way I could get the motor to work was reverse the channel, full stick for no throttle. Reverse it again and quickly pull the stick down to the bottom, then throttle works normally. You have to do this every time. I played with the subtrims and epa's.

This radio system has issues, I think.
On mine with the DX6i I have to go to full throttle and hold it there for a second or two then back to off and then it's ready to go..

So we both are having a unasked for up elevator?? I had the dive yesterday on my first flight.. And today the up elevator..

Looks like I sucked part of the front cowl through the motor and now I have a chipped blade. Now I know why I couldn't find all the pieces at the crash site.
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 10:42 PM
LiPo-Sucker & Airframe EMT
pugsam's Avatar
Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Joined Aug 2010
3,799 Posts
[QUOTE=Thayer;20769800.....Given that it weighs so little, it doesn't have the inertia to carry it through a near stall situation once the drag starts to build. Simple physics. Keep the power on, the fuselage close to level and you should be fine.....
Thayer[/QUOTE]

+1

I'm no Old Hand, having had only two EDFs up to now, but I say True Dat!
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Old Feb 16, 2012, 10:43 PM
Crashy McLandington
Northern Colorado
Joined Dec 2005
590 Posts
Sounds similar. And I know what people are gonna say. You got it too slow and it stalled, yada yada.. let's think this through. I'm holding full power for takeoff. Nice, not pitchy climbout, level out still holding full power and accelerating. Recipe for a stall? No, not at all. And that's when it decided to go vertical with no stick input. My first thought was the canopy came off and the battery shifted back. Nope. CG correct too. Maybe I hit a bird's wake turbulence. All I know is that it didn't do what I told it to and I certainly didn't cause it to wallow into a stall.
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