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Old Feb 06, 2012, 07:50 PM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Some of the other companies boast you can charge up to 5C but I would never do it. The pack might take it but it ain't gonna last long.
Sorry but I have data to prove otherwise. I have charged other brands of Lipolys at 5C for over 300 cyles and discharged them at rather high rates as in 17C (less than 4 min) to greater than 90% depth of discharge and the capacity decrease was very minimal and the voltage under load did not demish.

The days of less than 3C charges are history IMO and 3 to 5C is my norm with some at 10 and even 12C.



Charles
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Old Feb 07, 2012, 05:13 AM
Batteries
Hong Kong, Hong Kong Island, Central
Joined Aug 2011
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Haiyin's 5000.6S 40C and 35C packs have a Max Current of 15amps, so the Max Charge Rate is 3C

Haiyin's H6000.6S 20C, 25C and 30C have a Max Current of 7.5amps, so the Max Charge Rate is 1.5C

Charging anyone's pack at higher rates is possible but... it's up to you.

Haiyin only states their true specs
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Old Feb 07, 2012, 05:55 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
34,834 Posts
So you have conducted controlled test such as charging a 40C at 1 or 1.5C and discharging it at say 25C to say 3.3 volts per cell for hundreds of cycles to determine how many cycles before it is reduced to less than 90% of original capacity and also charged one at 5C discharged same way and for the same number of cycles or same 10% capacity loss?

If such test have been conducted I would very much like to see the data. If you do not want it made public fine it can be emailed to me. Remember I was the one contacted by your Representative .

In case my statement on 5C charging is being questioned which it surely seems here is a linke to one of my test and I can supply addational ones.


Thunder Power Pro Power 45 tested

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...19&postcount=1

As some have a difficult time understanding graphs I will offer a short summary.

TPPP45 3S 2250 was charged at 11A (4.88C) and discharged at 40A (17.77C) that is a 3 min. discharge equal such as in an extremely hard 3D flight..

The first 40A discharge was used as a base point and during the life cycle testing the capacity delivered was compared to this fourth cycles test.

After 300 cycles the 3S Thunder Power Pro Power 45 still delivered 91.8% of the capacity obtained first time 40A (17.77c) discharge was completed.

Now some will be fast to point out that since the PP45 was rated for 45C I was only discharging it at just 39% of it Cont. Dsc. rating but the subject which seems to be in question here is charge rates effecting life not discharge rates .


How about in a real flight under normal(?) aerobatic loads) . This aircraft is normaly flown with a large LiPoly either a 4S 2600 plus or a 3S 3300 plus.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...2&d=1250359146

I have some Poly No One LiPolys which I also tested. The vendor clearly stated not to be charged at more than 2C
as he was concerned how higher rates would effect cycle life.

I charged these ar 3 to 5C ,mostly at 5C and one I have flown the most is a 3S 3300 rated 30C from July of 2009 and it now has 198 discharges on it 114 bench cycles (test cycles) and 80 flights.




The math is very simple for me. One can purchase 6 LiPolys and 5 chargers so they can charge at 1 or 1.5C and have enough LiPolys to fly without having to spend a lot of time waiting of LiPolys or they can have 3 capable of 5C plus charging and 2 chargers and fly non stop.

Do not care to fly non stop then how about this two LiPolys ,one charger 5C charges and a flight every 13 minutes. all day long or until you get tired. Did it again yesterday. 2each. HK nanao tech LiPolys rated for 5C charging and 25C discharge. Two aircraft which use the same size LiPoly. I charged at 5C and flights were 5 min. down to 90% state of discharge or aprox. 12C discharge rate. Five minute flights and 13 minute charges plus time changing LiPolys, walking out to flight station, flying 5 min. landing picking up plane waling to pits, removing LiPloy walking over to charger wait 2 min. swap LiPolys and repeat. Seven flights ina very short time period . Note I had 4 more fully charged LiPolts with me but felt no dires to use them. Even I like a short break between flights.




I would rather have 3 LiPolys to manage than 6 and I do not believe most flyers are going to complain a great deal about only getting two or 300 flights from a LiPoly. By the time most flyers reach 200 cycles their LiPolys will be 3 years old and very outdated anyway. Most will damage thier LiPolys thru other means such as crash damage, lost in a filed,tree,river. Left connected to a ESC and drained to close to zero volts, droped on hard surface due to careless handling, deformed by using to much velcro , creased by wrinting on labels on them with a ball point pin using inexpensive inaccurate chargers / balancers and I could go on and on.


Now I imagine the good folks at Haiyin now wish theyhad never contacted me but be that as it may. As I have posted here numerious times over the years. I do not make these numbers up. My test equipment does not lie, I do not lie. If I test LiPolys I post the results be it good or bad.


I apologize for such a long post and perhaps a bit of subject but I am very tired of the old 1C charging myth in this day of 20-65C LiPolys and balancing chargers. 1C was fine when LiPolys were less than 10C discharge rated and there was no such thing as balancing. Anything less than 3C charging recomendations reminds of of the old better not have sex before you are married or you will get pregnate ,or do not look at photos of naked women or you will go blind or better not ....... .

Charles
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Old Feb 07, 2012, 06:43 PM
Registered User
United States, NJ, Clayton
Joined Aug 2010
1,580 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Sorry but I have data to prove otherwise. I have charged other brands of Lipolys at 5C for over 300 cyles and discharged them at rather high rates as in 17C (less than 4 min) to greater than 90% depth of discharge and the capacity decrease was very minimal and the voltage under load did not demish.

The days of less than 3C charges are history IMO and 3 to 5C is my norm with some at 10 and even 12C.



Charles
Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
So you have conducted controlled test such as charging a 40C at 1 or 1.5C and discharging it at say 25C to say 3.3 volts per cell for hundreds of cycles to determine how many cycles before it is reduced to less than 90% of original capacity and also charged one at 5C discharged same way and for the same number of cycles or same 10% capacity loss?

If such test have been conducted I would very much like to see the data. If you do not want it made public fine it can be emailed to me. Remember I was the one contacted by your Representative .

In case my statement on 5C charging is being questioned which it surely seems here is a linke to one of my test and I can supply addational ones.


Thunder Power Pro Power 45 tested

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...19&postcount=1

As some have a difficult time understanding graphs I will offer a short summary.

TPPP45 3S 2250 was charged at 11A (4.88C) and discharged at 40A (17.77C) that is a 3 min. discharge equal such as in an extremely hard 3D flight..

The first 40A discharge was used as a base point and during the life cycle testing the capacity delivered was compared to this fourth cycles test.

After 300 cycles the 3S Thunder Power Pro Power 45 still delivered 91.8% of the capacity obtained first time 40A (17.77c) discharge was completed.

Now some will be fast to point out that since the PP45 was rated for 45C I was only discharging it at just 39% of it Cont. Dsc. rating but the subject which seems to be in question here is charge rates effecting life not discharge rates .


How about in a real flight under normal(?) aerobatic loads) . This aircraft is normaly flown with a large LiPoly either a 4S 2600 plus or a 3S 3300 plus.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...2&d=1250359146

I have some Poly No One LiPolys which I also tested. The vendor clearly stated not to be charged at more than 2C
as he was concerned how higher rates would effect cycle life.

I charged these ar 3 to 5C ,mostly at 5C and one I have flown the most is a 3S 3300 rated 30C from July of 2009 and it now has 198 discharges on it 114 bench cycles (test cycles) and 80 flights.




The math is very simple for me. One can purchase 6 LiPolys and 5 chargers so they can charge at 1 or 1.5C and have enough LiPolys to fly without having to spend a lot of time waiting of LiPolys or they can have 3 capable of 5C plus charging and 2 chargers and fly non stop.

Do not care to fly non stop then how about this two LiPolys ,one charger 5C charges and a flight every 13 minutes. all day long or until you get tired. Did it again yesterday. 2each. HK nanao tech LiPolys rated for 5C charging and 25C discharge. Two aircraft which use the same size LiPoly. I charged at 5C and flights were 5 min. down to 90% state of discharge or aprox. 12C discharge rate. Five minute flights and 13 minute charges plus time changing LiPolys, walking out to flight station, flying 5 min. landing picking up plane waling to pits, removing LiPloy walking over to charger wait 2 min. swap LiPolys and repeat. Seven flights ina very short time period . Note I had 4 more fully charged LiPolts with me but felt no dires to use them. Even I like a short break between flights.




I would rather have 3 LiPolys to manage than 6 and I do not believe most flyers are going to complain a great deal about only getting two or 300 flights from a LiPoly. By the time most flyers reach 200 cycles their LiPolys will be 3 years old and very outdated anyway. Most will damage thier LiPolys thru other means such as crash damage, lost in a filed,tree,river. Left connected to a ESC and drained to close to zero volts, droped on hard surface due to careless handling, deformed by using to much velcro , creased by wrinting on labels on them with a ball point pin using inexpensive inaccurate chargers / balancers and I could go on and on.


Now I imagine the good folks at Haiyin now wish theyhad never contacted me but be that as it may. As I have posted here numerious times over the years. I do not make these numbers up. My test equipment does not lie, I do not lie. If I test LiPolys I post the results be it good or bad.


I apologize for such a long post and perhaps a bit of subject but I am very tired of the old 1C charging myth in this day of 20-65C LiPolys and balancing chargers. 1C was fine when LiPolys were less than 10C discharge rated and there was no such thing as balancing. Anything less than 3C charging recomendations reminds of of the old better not have sex before you are married or you will get pregnate ,or do not look at photos of naked women or you will go blind or better not ....... .

Charles
+1 Its irritating to hear people say that "if you charge at 5c, the pack is not gonna last long" ..................soooo annoying.........just my two cents
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Old Feb 08, 2012, 11:29 PM
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I was looking specifically at the 3S 1300mAh batteries on their site and noticed a slightly strange thing:
There are three versions: 20C, 25C, 30C. According to their data sheet, the 20C is the lightest, the 25C the heaviest, 30C in the middle. Also the 25C is the most expensive, about a $1 more expensive than the 30C.
Any special reasons why this is? Usually price and weight increase with C rating, no? Granted, the differences are minimal.
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 12:37 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Usually (?) a 3S 25C 450 (500 range) name brand LiPoly will cost aprox. $15 and a similare same brand 3300 will cost approx. $53.



Prices based on Hyperion 25C 3S at Lipo.com

HAIYIN gets $10.69 for a 3S 20C 500 and $27 for a 3S 20c 3300 and $28 for a 3S 30C 3300.

This to me means their small LiPoys are not really all that good of a deal while their large ones are a great deal if in fact they stand the test of time and if they will increase the approved charge rates to 3 to 5C and if they will offer a reasonal warranty .

Charles
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 09:33 AM
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Land O' Lakes, FL
Joined Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javemtr View Post
I was looking specifically at the 3S 1300mAh batteries on their site and noticed a slightly strange thing:
There are three versions: 20C, 25C, 30C. According to their data sheet, the 20C is the lightest, the 25C the heaviest, 30C in the middle. Also the 25C is the most expensive, about a $1 more expensive than the 30C.
Any special reasons why this is? Usually price and weight increase with C rating, no? Granted, the differences are minimal.
I noticed that too and found it strange as you did. Yes, normally the higher the C rating, the heavier the pack as it is the 'density' of the battery that gives the extra discharge capacity.

I hope the company rep that comes on here can explain it.
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 09:37 AM
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Land O' Lakes, FL
Joined Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Usually (?) a 3S 25C 450 (500 range) name brand LiPoly will cost aprox. $15 and a similare same brand 3300 will cost approx. $53.



Prices based on Hyperion 25C 3S at Lipo.com

HAIYIN gets $10.69 for a 3S 20C 500 and $27 for a 3S 20c 3300 and $28 for a 3S 30C 3300.

This to me means their small LiPoys are not really all that good of a deal while their large ones are a great deal if in fact they stand the test of time and if they will increase the approved charge rates to 3 to 5C and if they will offer a reasonal warranty .

Charles
I suspect its an economy of scale situation. The small capacity packs (500mAh) require just as much labor to manufacture and assemble as the big packs do. they use the same balance plugs and connectors. The difference between the small and big packs is the materials only which may be a small part of the cost factor. Think of it this way. Sometimes it takes just as much time and labor to build a small model as it does to build a large model. The difference is in the cost of the materials.
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 10:40 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by sailr View Post
I suspect its an economy of scale situation. The small capacity packs (500mAh) require just as much labor to manufacture and assemble as the big packs do. they use the same balance plugs and connectors. The difference between the small and big packs is the materials only which may be a small part of the cost factor. Think of it this way. Sometimes it takes just as much time and labor to build a small model as it does to build a large model. The difference is in the cost of the materials.
I am fully aware of those fact but it does not change the price to capacity comaprison difference of Haiyin and others such as Hyperion used in my example, Thunder Power,Hobby King and so many others.
Perhaps Haiyin does not really care that much for the smaller LiPoly market but overall indicators still suggest that there are alot more e-flyers using 3S or less and 1700 mAh or less than more cells and greater capacity.

Many would be willing to try a less expensive 3S of 1300 mAh than a more expensive 6S 4000 mAh from an unknow to them supplier.

There are profits to be made from very low cost LiPolys being sold in very large quanities. There are 1S 120 mAh LiPolys for the brushed micros being sold for $1.38 each. I have no idea how good they are but many seem very happy with them. I tried the Flitemax. 1S 138 mAh years ago and thought they were worthless as they woulld not fly my Blade m S/R heli worth a toot and lasted less than 20 flights but many used them in Embers and were extremely happy with them.

Haiyin is or atleast claims to be a LiPoly manufacture not a trading co . LTD etc and thus they have atleast one less middle man most likely 2 or 3 less.

I do have some experience in mass production as I was a Tool & Die Maker for many years and then a Manufacturing Plant Engineer for 20 years. I designed and built equipment which produces large volumns of finished products at a cost of next to nothing compared to less automated means.


Charles
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 03:47 PM
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USA, AK, Houston
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So what is the consensus on these? They are well priced. I need to get some 6s5000 packs and they are expensive no matter who you get them from, so I don't want to spend more than necessary, but I'm not interested in junk either.

It's going to be these, gens ace, spyder, or billowy from hicountry. Any thoughts?

schu
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Perhaps Haiyin does not really care that much for the smaller LiPoly market but overall indicators still suggest that there are alot more e-flyers using 3S or less and 1700 mAh or less than more cells and greater capacity.
While I totally agree with what you have said, there is also a VERY large market for their larger batteries. Ground based RC.

As awesome as RC airplanes and helicopters are, I will bet that for every one person who flies, there is 100 people who drive. Something about the steep learning curve of "I crashed my plane/helicopter and it's a total write off"

Especially now that Haiyin has achieved ROAR approval on two of their 2S stick packs, expect their sales of larger capacity 2S and 4S packs to grow quite a bit.

As soon as I saw the ROAR approval, I grabbed 4 2S batteries for myself, plus a pair of 4S packs as I should be able to justify them to any race director until such time that they are officially approved.
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 09:08 PM
Batteries
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After extensive internal testing, we now state that ALL Haiyin packs can be charged at up to 5C. Many thanks also go out to the excellent field testers
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 10:21 PM
OOPS
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USA, GA, Cochran
Joined Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAIYIN View Post
After extensive internal testing, we now state that ALL Haiyin packs can be charged at up to 5C. Many thanks also go out to the excellent field testers
So you are saying your batteries are power lab 8 ready?
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 06:58 AM
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So you are saying that my batteries which are in the mail system went from a 1.5c to 5c charge rate capable.I wonder what the postman did.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 07:49 AM
Penguins can´t fly?
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I think that extensive internal testing wasn´t done on the batterys but these Forum Post´s
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