Originally Posted by seefest

I build ALL my boats myself, including designing a few and alot of scratch builds.

I meant by building both boats yourself (from a short kit and sourcing all the rigging), that you can build a higher tech boat(US1M) for 1/2 to 2/3 the cost of an IOM. Everything is expensive on an IOM, and its all low tech stuff. Its expensive because of its popularity. Case in point is the aluminum masts. An IOM groovy aluminum mast is $25-$30 and then another $25 for shipping.($50-$55)
I can get a pultruded carbon kite spar for $10, plus another $10 in shipping. ($20)
Where is the savings there?

The Skalpel M is another story as it IS a hi-tech boat, with hi-tech fittings and rigging, and carbon everything. At least you are getting what you pay for.

You can home build an IOM slightly cheaper that you can home build a higher tech (CF) USOM, (just think about the cost of CF versus the cost of balsa or pine). IOM's are expensive not because of their popularity (although there is always the offer vs demand issue), but because you (you as customer) are paying someone else to build you a boat, you are paying his time and skills, not technology. Groovy masts need to be made, but if you by a round mast you don't spend that much more than a pultruded carbon kite spar, same if you buy a tapered mast from Ken Bauser instead of mass produced cf spar, you will pay more, but not because of the technology, but because someone had to make that spar just for you . A ready to sail kevlar venom had more or less the same price of a ready to sail fg IOM, or think about what you pay for a fully assembled and professionally painted Victoria or CR914 (600 +) .......

Originally Posted by gio06226

You can home build an IOM slightly cheaper that you can home build a higher tech (CF) USOM, (just think about the cost of CF versus the cost of balsa or pine). IOM's are expensive not because of their popularity (although there is always the offer vs demand issue), but because you (you as customer) are paying someone else to build you a boat, you are paying his time and skills, not technology. Groovy masts need to be made, but if you by a round mast you don't spend that much more than a pultruded carbon kite spar, same if you buy a tapered mast from Ken Bauser instead of mass produced cf spar, you will pay more, but not because of the technology, but because someone had to make that spar just for you . A ready to sail kevlar venom had more or less the same price of a ready to sail fg IOM, or think about what you pay for a fully assembled and professionally painted Victoria or CR914 (600 +) .......

Carbon cloth is not as expensive as you think. When I built my Carbon Hull 16 US1M, I used 1/2 yard of carbon cloth.(carbon 5oz cloth is around $30/yard). The labor is the same. Decks on a competetive US1M are monocoat, which is very inexpensive.

I'm not saying you can't build an IOM for cheap, you can. But I am talking a competetive IOM. You can build a lightweight US1M able to compete at the highest level for cheaper than you can a "top level" IOM.

Some of the top level European IOM's assembled are between 3-6K............A Venom assembled was never 3-6K even in todays money.

And even if they were exactly the same price to build or fully built, you still are comparing a fiberglass boat with an aluminum mast that weighs 8 lbs, versus an all carbon/kevlar boat with a carbon mast that weighs 5.5lbs.

Not sure exactly what the original question was, but I am a relatively proficient home designer/builder. I make my own molds and lay up my own hulls in Carbon, Kevlar(r) or glass. To put together a competitive Marblehead, I incurred the following costs/time:
Materials Time
Hull $75 10hrs
Fin/rudder $75 5hrs
Electronics $150 2hrs
Rig 5hrs
Mast $150
Sails $125
Fittings $50

Total $625 22hrs

Affordable compared to the going price of a kit boat like a Pinter or Viper, which were ~$1500. Not everyone has the time or ability to put into a boat and they are forced to buy. It was just getting too expensive for most people. Then came the Skalpel, starting at $3000.

The RG65 class, on the other hand, offers most of what the Marblehead offers in a smaller package. I was able to put together a boat with a purchased hull and purchased sails for under $300, electronics included, and got 4th in the Nationals.

Originally Posted by seefest

Carbon cloth is not as expensive as you think. When I built my Carbon Hull 16 US1M, I used 1/2 yard of carbon cloth.(carbon 5oz cloth is around $30/yard). The labor is the same. Decks on a competetive US1M are monocoat, which is very inexpensive.

I'm not saying you can't build an IOM for cheap, you can. But I am talking a competetive IOM. You can build a lightweight US1M able to compete at the highest level for cheaper than you can a "top level" IOM.

Some of the top level European IOM's assembled are between 3-6K............A Venom assembled was never 3-6K even in todays money.

And even if they were exactly the same price to build or fully built, you still are comparing a fiberglass boat with an aluminum mast that weighs 8 lbs, versus an all carbon/kevlar boat with a carbon mast that weighs 5.5lbs.

Yeah I'm still comparing a fiberglass boat with an aluminum mast that weighs 8 lbs, that it's faster than an all carbon/kevlar boat with a carbon mast that weighs 5.5lbs. in all but the lightest wind conditions ...... (you live in NE right? Ask Greg V -if he still sails, or Jim L. about that)
That's absolutely NOT the point!
If you can build a competitive USOM, you can build a competitive IOM (or M, or Star ....). There is no difference whatsoever in building techniques or material for that matter (yes, in one you may use CF in the hull - you still have to build a mold btw, but it will also work perfectly well with balsa and fg and you work with cf in the same way you work with fg so if you can do one you can do the other, the material may be "space-age" but the building methods, as well as the boat design theory behind the hull and appendages are the same).
You can pay a small fee (nowhere near the 6k) and get a modern IOM design plan from a series of proven designers to build (Brad Gibson SKA plan is less than 6 pounds), or there are some freebies to download too and what makes those free hulls competitive, as well as the professionally build expensive ones it's the (best) skipper that sails them not the design year or building materials......

If you want to build, and be competitive you can, especially if you are sailing regionally or in club races only, obviously you have to be a good builder and a good sailor (look a Michael Scharming in Germany), and granted those persons are the exception and not the rule, even among the USOM sailors judging by the amount of home-made boats vs professionally build ones in national championships regattas..... . And higher up you want to compete the better sailor you have to be, especially when you compete on a global scale, but it is possible to be competitive with a completely home-build IOM, in the same way there are competitive sailors with home-build USOM or Stars or M ...... Just think about it the first Brit POP - that won quite a lot around the globe in 2010 that was a home build boat, granted Gibson would be competitive with a 2x4 with sails...... but it was a home build.
And again I said "it's possible" the fact that most IOM sailors prefer to spend "a lot of money" upfront for a ready to sail boat it's a different issue.

For the past 3 days this Marblehead thread has been at the top of the forum.
Let's keep it going in one form or another. I'd love to see any conversation on these awesome boats.

Originally Posted by gio06226

Yeah I'm still comparing a fiberglass boat with an aluminum mast that weighs 8 lbs, that it's faster than an all carbon/kevlar boat with a carbon mast that weighs 5.5lbs. in all but the lightest wind conditions ...... (you live in NE right? Ask Greg V -if he still sails, or Jim L. about that)
That's absolutely NOT the point!
If you can build a competitive USOM, you can build a competitive IOM (or M, or Star ....). There is no difference whatsoever in building techniques or material for that matter (yes, in one you may use CF in the hull - you still have to build a mold btw, but it will also work perfectly well with balsa and fg and you work with cf in the same way you work with fg so if you can do one you can do the other, the material may be "space-age" but the building methods, as well as the boat design theory behind the hull and appendages are the same).
You can pay a small fee (nowhere near the 6k) and get a modern IOM design plan from a series of proven designers to build (Brad Gibson SKA plan is less than 6 pounds), or there are some freebies to download too and what makes those free hulls competitive, as well as the professionally build expensive ones it's the (best) skipper that sails them not the design year or building materials......

If you want to build, and be competitive you can, especially if you are sailing regionally or in club races only, obviously you have to be a good builder and a good sailor (look a Michael Scharming in Germany), and granted those persons are the exception and not the rule, even among the USOM sailors judging by the amount of home-made boats vs professionally build ones in national championships regattas..... . And higher up you want to compete the better sailor you have to be, especially when you compete on a global scale, but it is possible to be competitive with a completely home-build IOM, in the same way there are competitive sailors with home-build USOM or Stars or M ...... Just think about it the first Brit POP - that won quite a lot around the globe in 2010 that was a home build boat, granted Gibson would be competitive with a 2x4 with sails...... but it was a home build.
And again I said "it's possible" the fact that most IOM sailors prefer to spend "a lot of money" upfront for a ready to sail boat it's a different issue.

We'll have to agree to disagree. One thing that is a fact is an IOM is a low tech boat at premium prices. Thats a fact.

The amount of homebuilt boats in any regatta at any level in any class is not an indication of the competetiveness of home built boats. Sailing is one of the few sports where rank amateurs can sail aginst the big boys just by signing up. There is very little "Qualifying" in sailing.

And, at least in the US1M class, if you don't have a Venom, you're already sailing at a disadvantage. (although this years nationals was won by a one off carbon boat, but the competition was pretty weak)

My point is, and you fail to understand it, is that restrictions on materials are imposed to keep costs down. That has not happened in the IOM class. If hulls are left developmental, obsolesence and increased costs are inevitable.

Now, back to Marbleheads. Anybody got a Toad, Spot or Bone they want to sell me?

Originally Posted by seefest

We'll have to agree to disagree. One thing that is a fact is an IOM is a low tech boat at premium prices. Thats a fact.

That's not a fact, that's your opinion.You think it's a low tech boat because of material restrictions in the rules. IOM's hulls are as advanced and developed as any modern sailboat.

Originally Posted by seefest

......
The amount of homebuilt boats in any regatta at any level in any class is not an indication of the competetiveness of home built boats. Sailing is one of the few sports where rank amateurs can sail aginst the big boys just by signing up. There is very little "Qualifying" in sailing.

And, at least in the US1M class, if you don't have a Venom, you're already sailing at a disadvantage. (although this years nationals was won by a one off carbon boat, but the competition was pretty weak)

Yeah, probably not, but it gives a good indication on how much the top sailors are willing to invest in order to win, and those sailors are the one that will drive the cost of a boat. And ona side note, there is little "Qualifying" as long everybody has a venom, at least for the USOM class.
.......

Originally Posted by seefest

......
My point is, and you fail to understand it, is that restrictions on materials are imposed to keep costs down. That has not happened in the IOM class. If hulls are left developmental, obsolesence and increased costs are inevitable.

I'm not failing to understand your point, I understand it perfectly, I just don't think it's correct. Yes material restrictions to keep the cost down and favor "kitchen builders" have obviously failed, but only if you look at the cost of professionally developed and build boats. What I'm trying to say is that some IOMs are expensive NOT because of material costs or hull development (and btw, yes, if hulls are developmental obsolescence is highly probable, not inevitable as the venom shows) but because you (as a customer), if you choose so, pay someone else time and effort to build a boat for you, Bantock claims (and I don't have any reason to doubt it) that he enlisted the help of the Wolfson Unit for hull design and VPP and foil design, now those things are not free, and don't help to keep the boat cost down for sure. Are you forced to spend all that money to be competitive in the IOM class, well that's up to you, personally, I won't spend it I like to build, but that's me, someone else more competitive could be more willing to that. That's the same problem modern M have (so that I remain in topic), the skalpel may be as advanced as a space rocket, but the high price is mostly due to the time and effort Skalpel is putting in building the boat for you.

As I said before, if you can build a competitive USOM, you can as easily build a competitive IOM for the same price or less, I know I can.

Originally Posted by gio06226

... but it gives a good indication on how much the top sailors are willing to invest in order to win, and those sailors are the one that will drive the cost of a boat....

That is the problem. As long as people are willing to spend money there are people willing to supply them. But it definitely takes a lot of time and effort to develop and manufacture a top performer, and I do not think that anyone is getting rich off of these boats.

As long as some people are willing to spend the money, top boat kit will be expensive. It is possible to make your own competitive boat, but it involves some skill and a serious investment in time. I think that fact killed the Marblehead and is stifling the IOM in the US.

Thanks Gregg and Gio - that just about sums it up.

Now to get back to the title, how can I start in Marbleheads?

General advice for sailing is to start with a second hand boat and take it from there. Problem, there are practically no used boats advertised in Europe, though it is said when you get to know a club there will be someone with a boat stashed away who might part with it. Unfortunately my club's Marbleheads are used by modellers so have cabins, steering wheels, railings and cotton sails - and sometimes an auxiliary motor.

There seem to be few published designs I might build, especially compared with the RG65 where just about everything is available and mostly free. I have just bought a plan from Brad Gibson at a giveaway price, but don't have any tips or reports of how well it might sail.

I have been with IOMs for a few years but the complexity of rig choice for Marbleheads seems baffling, so the only way to understand seems to be to get in there and try.

Any ideas to get me and others on the water?

Jerry

Originally Posted by gio06226

That's not a fact, that's your opinion.You think it's a low tech boat because of material restrictions in the rules. IOM's hulls are as advanced and developed as any modern sailboat.



Yeah, probably not, but it gives a good indication on how much the top sailors are willing to invest in order to win, and those sailors are the one that will drive the cost of a boat. And ona side note, there is little "Qualifying" as long everybody has a venom, at least for the USOM class.
.......

I'm not failing to understand your point, I understand it perfectly, I just don't think it's correct. Yes material restrictions to keep the cost down and favor "kitchen builders" have obviously failed, but only if you look at the cost of professionally developed and build boats. What I'm trying to say is that some IOMs are expensive NOT because of material costs or hull development (and btw, yes, if hulls are developmental obsolescence is highly probable, not inevitable as the venom shows) but because you (as a customer), if you choose so, pay someone else time and effort to build a boat for you, Bantock claims (and I don't have any reason to doubt it) that he enlisted the help of the Wolfson Unit for hull design and VPP and foil design, now those things are not free, and don't help to keep the boat cost down for sure. Are you forced to spend all that money to be competitive in the IOM class, well that's up to you, personally, I won't spend it I like to build, but that's me, someone else more competitive could be more willing to that. That's the same problem modern M have (so that I remain in topic), the skalpel may be as advanced as a space rocket, but the high price is mostly due to the time and effort Skalpel is putting in building the boat for you.

As I said before, if you can build a competitive USOM, you can as easily build a competitive IOM for the same price or less, I know I can.

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. If they are enlisting computer design firms to optimize hull design, it's an expensive class.

Last time I was looking for a project to build, I priced short kits for IOM's and all the various components to build what I consider to be a top notch competetive yacht.(that could with the right skipper win the Worlds) It was easily over $2000. It just wasn't worth it to me because there is little IOM activity in my area. So I built a larger similar tech boat, fiberglass hull, aluminum mast, heavy displacement............I built a Star. Cost all up was about $900.

I sailed in the M class back in the 80's as a teen. It was the same as the IOM today, you needed tons of cash to compete at the highest level. Thats what eventually killed the M in this country.

I'd love to see an IOM YOU can build that will be able to compete(and podium finish barring skippers skill) at the IOM Worlds that can be built for the price of a Nationals winning US1M! It can be done, if you're retired and don't have anything else on your plate. Unfortunately for most of us we are not afforded that luxury.

I'm sorry if you're getting so upset calling an IOM a low tech boat, but it is. Just because ONE component of the yacht is computer designed and extensively tested, does not make the whole yacht a hi-tech boat.

Here is a paragraph from Lester Gilberts site explaining the reason behind forming the IOM class. They suceeded in developing a very popular class(outside the US at least), but failed miserably at making it affordable.

"The International One Metre class was created by Jan Dejmo, with the support of Graham Bantock and the Permanent Committee of the ISAF-Radio Sailing Division, and adopted by ISAF-RSD in 1988. The intent was to pull together a variety of "One metre" class rules from different countries, and provide for a common, restricted, inexpensive international class of stable, easily-built designs. The result is the most popular RC racing yacht class in the world."

Forgot the most important thing in my last post.

Anybody got an old Spot, Toad or Bone for me?

Hi Jerry,
There are regularly Marbleheads on the UK Ebay site in fact there's one on there at the momentt going for a song it may not be the latest design but it's a start to getting on the water. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1108269373...84.m1423.l2649 I know it says pick up only but as the Worlds is in your country this year I'm sure it could be brought over with a skipper that's going to it.

I think Marblehead racing in the UK is going to pick up I know of 3 top skippers/builders in the UK building new boats for the coming Worlds.

Some of us have built the Monarch Marblehead, designed by Graham Bantock. You can purchase the detailed plans from Traplet Publishing.

Sure, it's a woody, but it's an awesome boat! I've been able to win, place, and show in several regattas with it. I haven't sailed against a Skapel, yet. But I know when I was researching it, it has beaten the Skapel sometimes (depending on who's the skipper).

Depending on your skills, you can keep the costs down.

Originally Posted by expat flyer

Thanks Gregg and Gio - that just about sums it up.

Now to get back to the title, how can I start in Marbleheads?

General advice for sailing is to start with a second hand boat and take it from there. Problem, there are practically no used boats advertised in Europe, though it is said when you get to know a club there will be someone with a boat stashed away who might part with it. Unfortunately my club's Marbleheads are used by modellers so have cabins, steering wheels, railings and cotton sails - and sometimes an auxiliary motor.

There seem to be few published designs I might build, especially compared with the RG65 where just about everything is available and mostly free. I have just bought a plan from Brad Gibson at a giveaway price, but don't have any tips or reports of how well it might sail.

I have been with IOMs for a few years but the complexity of rig choice for Marbleheads seems baffling, so the only way to understand seems to be to get in there and try.

Any ideas to get me and others on the water?

Jerry

Originally Posted by seefest

Forgot the most important thing in my last post.

Anybody got an old Spot, Toad or Bone for me?

I've got nothing for you of substance really, but I'll ask around. Problem is where I know that those boats are, they happen to be the more desirable ones. I.E. Bone prototypes from the Naval Academy tow-tank. I highly doubt they'll be released.

I'm sure you are aware of this?
http://www.shipsstoremodelyacht.com/...ans,%20Etc.htm
Bone IX plans offered for sale.

Also, any special reasoning behind the Spot, Toad, or Bone?
Just out of curiosity, as if I were looking in that realm, I probably would put a Magic Dragon at, or near the top of my list. Just wondering what you're after though.