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Old Sep 28, 2012, 01:49 PM
CPA# 39
EscapeFlyer's Avatar
United States, MN, Brooklyn Center
Joined May 2009
724 Posts
Wow!

FYI guys...

Mr Hanson is THE Richard Hanson... He designed the famous Tiporare pattern plane used and proved as one of THE best designs ever used in pattern flying.


Thank you for your help in our endeavor, Mr. Hanson. I think you are telling us not to expect the large turnouts of yesteryear. So, even small participation is a success based on the current economics. This result is still a complete success.

Correct?

We ought not look at success as 30-40 entries, rather- a small group is where expectations ought be laid and any lucky larger turnouts come from exercising events in smaller numbers.

We need to re-think the definition of a successful event, and put relevant expectations on relevant equipment..

Opinion?

Brian
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 03:20 PM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
United States, IA, Rockwell
Joined Jul 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikebipes View Post
FYI guys...

Mr Hanson is THE Richard Hanson... He designed the famous Tiporare pattern plane used and proved as one of THE best designs ever used in pattern flying.


Thank you for your help in our endeavor, Mr. Hanson. I think you are telling us not to expect the large turnouts of yesteryear. So, even small participation is a success based on the current economics. This result is still a complete success.

Correct?

We ought not look at success as 30-40 entries, rather- a small group is where expectations ought be laid and any lucky larger turnouts come from exercising events in smaller numbers.

We need to re-think the definition of a successful event, and put relevant expectations on relevant equipment..

Opinion?

Brian
Brian, we both had small turn outs at our respective pattern primers. I know the guys had FUN at ours, flying anything with wings (everybody flew the novice pattern).

I think fun and reasonable expense is the key to a successful event in this economy. I'm willing to try a Mini-IMAC event next year. I feel Mini-IMAC will be a better fit with the popular airframe of today (scale aerobatic airframe).

Ken
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 02:38 PM
The Prez....... again
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United States, IA, Rockwell
Joined Jul 2011
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I asked a bit about Mini-Imac from the pres of the IMAC group. Here is what I received back. It answers a few questions about what it was about.

Ken


Hi there Ken.... Thank you for your input.

In the long past, we HAD an "mini-Mac" event which was combined with the actual contest itself. When registering at a contest, the pilot would indicate on his form if he/she was entering the "Mini-Mac" series. The pilot would still compete in the class that he/she was registered during the contest.....at the end of the contest, the scorekeeper would have a separate print-out for the "mini-Mac" class.

So....in effect, IMAC has already gone down that road. It seems that the Mini-Mac option died a natural death because no one participated any longer. Yes.... the pilots used the same sequences that were officially published and were scored in the same manner as they were flying at the same time during the contest before the same judges. The only difference, was that at the end, the scorekeeper printed out a different set of results.

I do not know where to direct you regarding finding information on Mini-Mac, since it has not been utilized for quite some time and I do not have any present information on it. Maybe you could contact a previous Secretary of the Club (Roy Barrow rbarrow@membank.com ) who may be able to shed some light on it for you.

At this time, because of previous experience at an attempt to have this class, I do not see us gearing to do it for now. We do have the 2014 IMAC World Championship event in front of us and our energies will be channeled in that direction.
Best regards,
Wayne (Matthews)
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Old Oct 03, 2012, 03:31 PM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
United States, IA, Rockwell
Joined Jul 2011
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A shamless bump and additional info and opinions....

It appears the IMAC group is not interested in Mini-IMAC. I can understand their commitment to the upcoming WC, and if my reading between the lines is correct, no interest for the foreseeable future.

From what I could find it looks like the mini's were limited to .40 size planes. IMO this is pretty small but absolutely doable in the basic class.

As has been suggested up to 30cc or 50cc would be an upper limit. I think the sweet spot for the mini's would be in the 90 2c to 120 4c range?????

If Mini-IMAC were to have a chance it would need to be a stand alone event. Not held in conjunction with an IMAC event. That would be perfect as in this central part of the country, Iowa, Minnesota, West of the Mississippi for quite a ways, there is no IMAC to speak of.

Is there anybody out there that would be willing to commit to something next flying season? Not necessarily hosting a contest but at least flying in one? What would be your upper limit of miles to travel to a contest? One day or two day contest? Two days is a large commitment for a clubs and contestants alike. What is the upper size limit YOU think should be allowed?

Opinions welcome!!

Ken
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 03:34 AM
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rowdyjoe's Avatar
Arlington, TX
Joined Jul 2009
1,247 Posts
Imac

Hi folks,
Just read this thread and wanted to toss my .02 in the pot and maybe correct a few misconceptions.
Anyone telling you that it takes a 150cc to 200cc plane to be competitive in IMAC is blowing a lot of smoke up your skirt. It is absolutely not true. There are more than a few guys doing very well in IMAC flying 50cc planes against much larger planes. Size of the plane does not make you a better pilot no more than owning a hammer makes you a carpenter. There are, unfortunately, egos in our hobby that know no bounds. Please don't pay attention to them. Don't let the blowhards and elitists hold you back.
If you're a hard core competitor and want to compete at the highest levels you're going to have to step up and buy the best equipment no matter what style of flying you do. If you want to be the best, your equipment has to be the best. (e.g A moderately equipped 50cc plane will cost approx. $1500 ....more if you want the best of everything. A moderately equipped SPA qualified plane moderately equipped will cost around $500.)
FWIW ....We have a club member who will be flying the Intermediate category with a relatively small Aeroworks Yak (.120 two stroke mounted) in our IMAC contest next weekend. I watched him practice today and can report that the other pilots in that category will have very stiff competition. The same guy won the Sportsman category in the SPA event last month flying a .60 sized trainer with a .60 two stroke mounted. It's about skill; not size.
As I read many of the posts here I kept thinking that you guys need to take a hard look at Senior Pattern Assoc. contests. The planes are smaller and the are restricted to .65 two stroke or .95 four strokes max. I think it's just as much fun as IMAC. IMO ...in SPA, the playing field is more level and the planes are more equal in performance. The maneuvers are much the same as IMAC but, the sequence is different. I like to fly both because it's all fun.
Go to the IMAC web site and watch the training videos and download the sequences and give it a try at your home field. It takes practice to get it right and lots more practice to win. OR ...go to the SPA site and download those sequences and do the same. Who knows, you may get other folks in your club or local area interested in it too and eventually hold a contest or two.

RJ
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 10:18 AM
CPA# 39
EscapeFlyer's Avatar
United States, MN, Brooklyn Center
Joined May 2009
724 Posts
I am the North Central Region Director for the Classic Pattern Association. I like the efforts the SPA have made. My preference is to use retracts and tuned pipes, just like they were originally used... even before 1976.

The CPA is great fun!

[QUOTE]If you're a hard core competitor and want to compete at the highest levels you're going to have to step up and buy the best equipment no matter what style of flying you do. If you want to be the best, your equipment has to be the best. (e.g A moderately equipped 50cc plane will cost approx. $1500 ..[/QUOTE]

Even with retracts and tuned pipes, I spend about half the cost you are recommending for the top notch CPA equipment.

I don't think I want to push those kinds of costs. Like the CPA and the SPA, my emphasis is keeping the costs down to manageable levels. I would like to see a .60 size aircraft pull off the same scores as the 50cc...

Based on attitudes in my geography, money is everything for modern IMAC. I would venture a guess that where IMAC flourishes, attitudes towards smaller aircraft will be more acceptable.

Brian
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Old Oct 14, 2012, 12:20 AM
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Arlington, TX
Joined Jul 2009
1,247 Posts
Mini Mac

Brian,
I think you quoted me out of context. I was comparing the cost between the different contest planes. Yes, an IMAC 50cc plane will cost around $1500 + but, I also stated that an SPA bird would cost around $500 (or $600). One thing I should have said is "the bigger they are the better they fly". I quote that from the guys I fly IMAC with and it's true. Having flown the smaller ones there's no substitute for size and horsepower to move it. The big ones force you to be more graceful and precise so you don't embarrass yourself too badly. Having said that, 50cc is as big as I can afford to go.
Tuned pipes are being using in SPA planes and the rules state that if the original bird had retracts or flaps, they could be used. However, there aren't many qualified planes that fit that description. If the plane is equipped with them, (eg. Phoenix 7 has optional retracts) you must not use them during the contest. SPA is gaining in popularity in my area and we're seeing more contests every year. Our club hosted 3 this year and are on the schedule for at least 2 next year plus we plan to hold the "East vs. West Shootout" at our club site.
My new SPA bird will be an Intruder 90 ARF by World Models and I plan to mount a used Saito .91 on the front. I have have flown an older version with a .61 two stroke and it's a very capable and sturdy airframe. It's not considered top of the line but, it will get the job done.
Let me say again, I'm not a hard core competitor but, I enjoy competing. I may never win my class but, I'll have just as much fun as everyone else ...and I'm already a better pilot for having practiced and competed.
Used IMAC planes are available for well below 1K and I've seen many good receiver ready planes for sale. My first 50cc IMAC bird was receiver ready for $800 (MX2 w/brand new DLE 55, servos, batteries, and smart fly) After I wrecked it I paid $500 shipped for a brand new airframe and mounted my engine and most of the servos from the old bird in the new one. If I wreck the new one I don't know if I'll ever be able to replace it again so, I will blow a maneuver and take a zero rather than wreck my plane. It's all about having fun and doing the best I can while preserving my equipment.

This hobby is all about having fun with good people and aerobatic contests just expand the opportunity for that. I have met a couple of jerks but, they change their attitude or leave after they find out we won't put up with their BS.
I love flying but, if it weren't for the fellowship with good people I would have moved on long ago.

After looking at the CPA web site I'd say that there is a LOT of commonality between CPA and SPA.

RJ
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Old Oct 14, 2012, 08:47 AM
CPA# 39
EscapeFlyer's Avatar
United States, MN, Brooklyn Center
Joined May 2009
724 Posts
Quote:
Brian,
I think you quoted me out of context. I was comparing the cost between the different contest planes. Yes, an IMAC 50cc plane will cost around $1500 + but, I also stated that an SPA bird would cost around $500 (or $600).
I understand why you would say that. For clarification, I was comparing apples to oranges.

I like the CPA because of the cool airplanes, but also because the pain of the purchase leaves me in less agony and I still get to fly amazing aircraft with purpose. I related that to one reason I fly CPA.

Mini IMAC will never be the CPA or the SPA, but I believe the idea ought to be similar. It needs to be an inclusive group of flyers that enjoy meeting new people and flying with purpose, in aircraft they can afford and be proud to display for the world to see, and have others admire the efforts they put into the airplane and their flying regardless of size.

I did not mean to make this thread about anything derogatory towards IMAC -or the SPA as a director for the CPA. If this has been the way this thread has been viewed, please accept my apologies.



Brian
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Old Oct 14, 2012, 09:34 PM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
United States, IA, Rockwell
Joined Jul 2011
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At least on my part, no apology needed Brian. You were/are just exploring another aspect of the hobby.

I feel with the explosion of smaller "scale" airframes in that 60 2C to 50cc size Mini-Mac should be a viable entity. IMO, Mini-Mac should be a stand alone entity. It should not ride on the coat tails of IMAC nor should it detract from Classic or Senior pattern. I think holding a Mini-Mac contest in conjunction with a IMAC contest is just to intimidating to the pilot of the small airframe.... and the fact it was limited to a .40 size plane to boot. With a revision limiting the upper size to 30cc or 50cc it is affordable and the size difference is not so great.

Use the IMAC sequences or the pattern schedule, it doesn't really matter. The skills will work both directions if the Mini pilot wants to go IMAC or Pattern at a later date.

The point is a new pilot will be flying in a competitive event. Where it goes is up to them.

Ken
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 10:58 PM
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Arlington, TX
Joined Jul 2009
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mini mac

No offense taken here. I was just trying to clarify my remarks.
My point is; the best pilot will win, not the biggest plane. I watched a guy flying an old, beat up, .46 sized version of an ugly stick win the Novice class in our latest SPA event. He was competing against folks flying the newest and (supposedly) best equipment on the market (e.g Phoenix 7, Dirty Birdie, etc.). There were 8 entries with a variety of planes in his class and he beat 7 other pilots flying a simple and visually ugly airplane. However, he has very good servos in it and is a very good pilot. Oh, almost forgot ...he's also using an old 72mhz transmitter (don't remember the brand) and I don't think it has expo or dual rates.
You should at least go and watch a contest to see how things are run and what the truth really is before you jump in with both feet. Don't let anyone discourage you and don't feel intimidated just because you have the smallest plane.
SPA has a Novice B class where you can fly any airplane as long as the engine does not exceed the specified limit. You can fly any plane in the IMAC Basic class.

Hope I didn't raise anyone's blood pressure with my posts here.

RJ
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 08:47 AM
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United States, VA, Suffolk
Joined Nov 2007
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I have seen the opposite. I saw someone fly a small .60 sized pattern plane at a VERY well attended pattern contest and he did not score as well as 2M planes in his class even though he flew better. There were quite a few grumbles from the pilots concerning that incident. What made it worse was it was 16-17 year old kid flying what he could afford. He flew it well and was penalized for having a small plane.
The one and only IMAC contest that I flew in, the smaller planes had a much harder times getting a fair shake. This was about 10 years ago, but the 25% planes had to be virtually perfect to get a 9 where as the 30-33%(35% and 40+% were not as popular yet) got them like candy and the piloting was very close. I flew basic with a 2m Sequel, and the Novice class was scored pretty fairly, but the next classes up had the "size" differences in scoring.
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 11:01 PM
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Arlington, TX
Joined Jul 2009
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jhaywood,
Sorry to hear about those souring experiences. It's a real shame when someone gets cheated. I'm sure it happens but, it's the exception rather than the rule. That's the kind of thing that turns people off and discourages participation. Any club that would allow that will wither and die because folks don't want to be treated dishonestly.
I haven't seen that behavior yet but, if I ever do I'll make my opinion known and never go back to that contest again. Don't paint the whole organization with the same brush. What happened at one club/event probably won't happen at the next 10. Remember the judges are human and make mistakes. Some have ego problems and should never sit in a judges chair. We need to weed them out and make sure they don't judge again. Your complaints should be sent to the org. HQ and you should include names. If enough folks complain to the right people you can make sure it doesn't happen again. Everyone has a duty to make things better for the next time. By the way, raking the CD over the coals is a good way to make sure he/she doesn't CD again or ensure he/she selects non-biased judges next time.
Unfortunately, judging is a subjective activity. Our judges are selected from experienced volunteers or picked from the participating pilots (of course they don't judge their own class). We here in the South Central Region of IMAC and SPA West have been working hard to educate our judges and get them all reading from the same book. Ignorance of the rules is one reason judging can differ from contest to contest. In my experience, the judging has been consistent at each contest but, inconsistent from contest to contest. I feel like our judges are trying hard to do their best and be fair but, a judge must be sure they are seeing an error and be able to explain that error to the pilot if asked. It's a very difficult job and, as long as humans are involved, I doubt we'll ever get the subjectivity out of it. I have no problem with "honest" mistakes. As long as the judges aren't playing favorites and are trying to be fair I won't have a gripe.

BTW ....IMAC will hold the first IMAC World Championship in 2014. It should be a great contest. I may go and watch even though I'm not much of a spectator. If I can't participate, I usually won't attend.

RJ
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 09:12 AM
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I cant say that it happened to me at the IMAC. My class was more than fair, heck, I was leading until the unknowns! For me to be leading, other guys should have been questioning those judges!!! I noticed the inequities in the higher classes. I consider myself a comptent judge having been through the NSRCA pattern class at the NATS, and I just thought that some of the guys flying the smaller planes got screwed.
I shy away from IMAC these days simply because I do not like the looks of the planes and the deviations from scale they all seem to have. Likewise, I despise the current 2m widebody pattern planes. This is why I am working on senior/classic pattern planes in a hope that somebody gets some contests going within a 3-4 hours drive of where I live.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 09:14 AM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rowdyjoe View Post
jhaywood,
In my experience, the judging has been consistent at each contest but, inconsistent from contest to contest.

RJ
IMO... As long as everybody at a particular contest is judged the same, I have no problem. Inconsistency between contests is going to be a "problem" no matter what. The only way to cure that is to have the same set of judges at each contest. It's the same problem for any sporting event. The judges/referees are human. You couldn't pay me enough to set in a judges chair

Ken
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 02:08 AM
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I guess the solution is left to the pilots. Fly the sequence or pattern perfectly and the judges won't have anything to mark you down for.

I'm not sure what you mean by deviations from scale but, all "scale" models have deviations from the prototype due to size. You can't soak a prototype in hot water to shrink it to a smaller size and expect it to fly well. The size of the plane makes difference in design.

I like IMAC & SPA because of the people involved. We compete but, have a bunch of fun while doing it. So, competing in both venues allows me to have twice as much fun.

As for judging ...someone has to do it and if you're going to compete you should be ready to step in to the judges seat once in a while. Remember, no judges, no contest. Besides, learning the rules well enough to judge will make you a better pilot because you will know what they are looking for. Some errors have a greater deduction than others and that may be where some of the perceived judging errors come from. Some errors count 1/2 point off while others are a full point off. Check the rules and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Take care and God Bless,
RJ
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