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Old Mar 05, 2010, 09:47 AM
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Wing Articulation Research Thread

Instead of a wiggle drive thread, and an adaptive wing thread and various posts on wing articulation concepts scattered throughout other threads, I'd like to establish this one thread as the new defacto wing articulation thread since it seems much discussion is headed in that direction. Anyone with anything related to any sort of wing articulation can freely post their ideas here...or not. That's up to you. But it will be easier to reference past wing articulation posts if they are predominantly in a single running thread.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 09:55 AM
There's magic in those wings !
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Okay .. let it be my 1st contribution ... Sorry for the poor hand drawing ... I really wanted to revive this thread , and I didn't have time for fancy CAD drawings .. but it is just a start

The right drawing is a schematic for top view of a bird wings/arms articulations

The left is just an illustration of a simple attempt of a one stage articulation , but it is not like the real bird .. it is not even articulated horizontally like a real bird does , but vertically for mechanical simplicity

Any correction/input is greatly appreciated

some slow motion videos of wing articulations to tackle the brain

Geese Taking Flight (slow motion) (1 min 50 sec)


Various Birds and a Fly in Slow Motion (2 min 40 sec)


Flapping Goose SlowMo @ 300fps (0 min 42 sec)


Khaled
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 10:11 AM
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Not to be mean but the real contribution is to make a functional bird as you can put the idea become true. Not too many people here are into R&D other than flying. When you put the word - my contribution - into this forum, are you meaning, you contribute your idea and hope someone will follow ? LOL
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 10:35 AM
There's magic in those wings !
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Hi LIG...

No not at all brother ...I suppose anything related ... till it find its way into reality .. you know step by step .. 1st blue prints then testing models ...and it is also a reason for Mr Sean to unleash a hint of his articulated wing designs

Khaled
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 10:46 AM
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I have known several PHD's from Stanford, MIT, and Berkely that they are trying to work on some kind of ornis during the last say 20 years, many talks but nothing came through. I guess due to no commercial or military advantages. So far, Sean's birds are the only mainbrane commercial ornis that can fly high outdoor like the real thing. Other than that RObert Muster's scale birds impressed me the most but he shares no knowledges with the rest of us.

By the way, if you don't mind me to ask, are you an educated or trained aero engineer ? Khaled. Seems like you are there.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 11:07 AM
There's magic in those wings !
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Originally Posted by LifeisGood View Post
By the way, if you don't mind me to ask, are you an educated or trained aero engineer ? Khaled. Seems like you are there.
Not at all LIG... I'm just a mechanical engineer and not a good one too , Education in Egypt is not that good, and again I have to tell you that English is not my 1st language so I may misuse some words ..like contribute .. it seems something too big for my capabilities too . so please accept my apologies for using that word .. all I wan is to have an R/C bird that moves its wing almsot like real bird .. it has some sort of magic don't you agree

Khaled
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 11:22 AM
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Well, you still an engineer by trade... that was what I though.

One thing I learned from this orni forum is that most of the senior orni lovers enjoy more pictures or videos of the ornis you purchased from Sean so that they can compare what you have to what they have see if there are any difference in flying and hardwares. I noticed you did well in finding available vds on the wings in general, good job, I have seen them all before and never not to enjoy watching them again. Please keep up with the good search, I enjoyed your postings.

BTW, in addtion to your postings, I believe all the other senior pilots including Sean would love to see the pics and vds of various sites in Egypt, if possible.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 12:31 PM
There's magic in those wings !
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I will do my best

Khaled
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeisGood View Post
I have known several PHD's from Stanford, MIT, and Berkely that they are trying to work on some kind of ornis during the last say 20 years, many talks but nothing came through. I guess due to no commercial or military advantages. So far, Sean's birds are the only mainbrane commercial ornis that can fly high outdoor like the real thing. Other than that RObert Muster's scale birds impressed me the most but he shares no knowledges with the rest of us.

By the way, if you don't mind me to ask, are you an educated or trained aero engineer ? Khaled. Seems like you are there.

LIG, not to sound boastful or anything, but commercial and military advantages don't neccessarily determine results, nor does having Phd's.
Phd's do not guarantee creativity or RAW TALENT. (Most college drama professors are NOT movie stars!) Sometimes DESIRE trumps everything else. A good mind and desire makes things happen. And OBSESSION is even better than just desire.

I always wonder why nobody else created Facebook sooner.
I mean why that young guy? What's so special about him and his student friends to go and make millions? Why not some tenured Phd in computer science? Why not Microsoft?

The Wright Brothers simply ran a bicycle shop and defied the assertions of the "experts" and Phd's of the day. I actually have ZERO formal education in engineering of any kind. I have a bachelor's degree in Liberal Arts! My knowledge is self taught but if you added up the hours I have devoted to engineering, and the amount of hands on work I have done over the years, I probably would have easily earned the equivalent of a masters degree in engineering at least.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 04:55 PM
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Ooooh Khaled...where did you find those videos?! The slow motion Geese is the BOMB! That's it! That's the wing motion. That's excellent footage for study. Thanks for posting that.

You're really gonna twist my arm here and make me post some articulation photos aren't you? Okay, I will post a few pics of some "stage 1" prototypes
but don't get too excited. I have a long way to go and don't really have the time to work more on the project right now. The mechanical motion and phasing in this model is beautiful. It's smooth as a sewing machine and powerful, but there are many bugs to be worked out before I expect it to fly.. mainly C.G. issues caused by the changes in wing incident.
This particular model may not be just right, but I think I am on the right track as far as the dynamic wing fanning aspect goes. In this model I have the mid-span hinge bending the wing along the roughly 45 degree angle of the diagonal batten. That LOOKS good but may not work. It is certain to inpart a pitching force into the wingstroke. I'll work more on the project when I get the chance. And sorry about the messy background. These photos weren't exactly taken for public display. They were just for my project records.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khaled_abobakr View Post
Okay .. let it be my 1st contribution ... Sorry for the poor hand drawing ... I really wanted to revive this thread , and I didn't have time for fancy CAD drawings .. but it is just a start

The right drawing is a schematic for top view of a bird wings/arms articulations

The left is just an illustration of a simple attempt of a one stage articulation , but it is not like the real bird .. it is not even articulated horizontally like a real bird does , but vertically for mechanical simplicity

Any correction/input is greatly appreciated

some slow motion videos of wing articulations to tackle the brain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEP-KgJkYnw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1SFzOXG2LE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FecvxurgWwo

Khaled

Khaled,

Your first drawing shows a typical simplified hinged wing, which may work in an ornithopter but still falls into the realm of the common assumption about how a bird wing bends, which in my opinion is an illusion for the most part.
Your second drawing show that you do understand the real mechanisms at work which are evident in the Geese video you posted.

The flex in the wing appears to be a simple hinge along the span, but it's not.
In the Geese, the flex is actually due to a rotation of the rotator cuff at the birds elbow. This gives the illusion of a hinge simply bending along the span, especially in the end of the video where the birds are flying away and you get a rear view. Without the advantage of seeing the bones of the wing as you can in the beginning of the video, it's easy to understand why most people assume the wing simply hinges along the span or "main spar".
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 05:19 PM
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The last video of the Goose doing that wing flap "stretch" is to me very much a "wiggle drive" motion but my pet duck did this movement often and while even done vigorously, it never produces any lift. It was just something the birds do sometimes. I think it's just a "dry run" stretching movement birds do to reassure themselves they are fit to take flight if they need to...before settling in.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 05:25 PM
There's magic in those wings !
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Hi Mr Kinkade

Yes illusion is the right word ..it took me a lot of observation to really see what's going on during the wing articulation ...it is so illusive especially at certain angles and when you have a 2nd stage of articulation all work in harmony and synchronization ...

I will try not to get too excited about the photos ... but in fact I'm

I hope you get better soon, take it easy

Khaled
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 05:39 PM
Kjell Dahlberg
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This is my prototype testing the wing tip accelerator.
Kjell
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=...20/UkWJq56B4wM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUKp8dkczt0
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 08:26 PM
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Kjell,

Since rigid spar wings work, your symmetrical wingtip accelerator should work, but that's different from what I'm striving for and aesthetically very different.
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