New Products Flash Sale
Thread Tools
Old Apr 28, 2015, 08:46 AM
Guidoracer is offline
Find More Posts by Guidoracer
Registered User
Guidoracer's Avatar
United States, CA, LA
Joined Nov 2004
3,306 Posts
Discussion
U.S. Racers -- Stock Class Rules Change Proposal

The SoCal guys had a long discussion this weekend about the state of the stock class. While we all feel it is good to have, especially for newer racers who are more prone to making mistakes in the faster Unlimited Superbike class, there are things about it that work and things that don't. The biggest gripe amongst all of us, regardless of experience, is the lack of speed. The sealed-can 27-turn motors take away the sensation of speed, and thus a good chunk of the excitement of running a bike. While usable cornering speeds are similar to those of the Superbikes, being able to practically have the throttle pinned all the the want around the track isn't a way to develop good habits when running faster bikes. And while we appreciated Kevin's efforts in finding a suitable low-cost motor to get the class going, the other big problem is that the breadth of techniques that can be used to increase performance even on a sealed-can brushed motor are too great to maintain at least a somewhat level playing field in terms of motor output.

For these reasons, we are proposing to move to a single inexpensive spec brushless motor as the only allowed motor for the class -- one of Hobby King's Turnigy TrackStar motors, powered by a ROAR-approved "blinky" ESC. As a brushless motor, it will require very minimal maintenance, not be subject to all the voodoo and tricks that brushed motors are, and have a controlled output of 0-degrees of timing advance from the ESC. Another benefit is that most current ESCs already have a blinky mode, so using the same bike for multiple classes is possible just by changing the motor and setting a different ESC mode.

There are two winds that we are considering -- 17.5 and 13.5. The goal is to settle on a motor spec that is fast enough to force drivers to have to learn braking points (remember, rear only -- no front binders) while not being able to set lap times competitive with the Superbikes. My personal opinion is that 13.5 might be a bit too fast (shall I remind all the SoCal guys the a$$-kickings that Torrance gave us using a 13.5 motor and no front brake -- essentially our stock setup), so I'm going to endorse the 17.5 spec.

Here are a few links to the proposed motors and to a list of ROAR-approved ESCs that have blinky mode:

Turnigy TrackStar 17.5 --> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arehouse_.html

Turnigy TrackStar 13.5 --> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arehouse_.html

ROAR Blinky ESC list --> http://www.roarracing.com/approved_non_timing_escs.php

Please share your thoughts and concerns so we can come to a consensus how to better the stock class before our Nationals event later this year.
Guidoracer is offline Find More Posts by Guidoracer
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Apr 28, 2015, 11:16 AM
katana2665 is online now
Find More Posts by katana2665
Registered User
katana2665's Avatar
Guilford, Ct.
Joined Jan 2004
1,698 Posts
I would seriously recommend reading the Moto3 (M3R) thread that dealt with this issue quite affectively. The development of a stock class that brought the fun back into the hobby for advanced users was dependent on having a level playing field. The bikes are quite competitive and it would be difficult for a driver to 'run away'.

http://www.moto-5.com/index.php/topic,3559.0.html
katana2665 is online now Find More Posts by katana2665
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 28, 2015, 01:40 PM
SteveLeake is online now
Find More Posts by SteveLeake
Registered User
SteveLeake's Avatar
Guildford - United Kingdom
Joined Sep 2005
52 Posts
Based on our experience in the UK then I would recommend going for any 17.5t motor and any blinky esc. In 18 months of racing this class, I've yet to see any real difference between the various motors and speedos and never heard anyone complain. It's nice and easy that way and as many people may already have a 17.5t motor then no need to buy another one.
SteveLeake is online now Find More Posts by SteveLeake
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 28, 2015, 07:15 PM
rskip is online now
Find More Posts by rskip
Registered User
United States, TX, Houston
Joined Jun 2006
310 Posts
Are you suggesting only a trackstar 17.5?

I'm fine with it either way (since I already have equipment for both). I actually liked the slower motor. It made the setup of the bike more interesting. Altering the gearing made a night/day difference in the infield vs straight. Lowering the COG and making the bike more stable became important because you didn't have the brute force to make it stand up as easy. You could even make the trade off for stickier tires since they didn't overheat as much.

But I can't argue that it was definitely *slow*.

-rskip
rskip is online now Find More Posts by rskip
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 28, 2015, 07:23 PM
Guidoracer is offline
Find More Posts by Guidoracer
Registered User
Guidoracer's Avatar
United States, CA, LA
Joined Nov 2004
3,306 Posts
We were thinking only the TrackStar motor for two reasons: price ($33), and minimal tuning opportunities/options. I have other 17.5 motors for my SC truck, like the Schuur Speed, which has optional rotors for tuning -- we want to avoid someone spending $90 for a motor then another $43 for a high-RPM rotor.
Guidoracer is offline Find More Posts by Guidoracer
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29, 2015, 02:32 AM
SteveLeake is online now
Find More Posts by SteveLeake
Registered User
SteveLeake's Avatar
Guildford - United Kingdom
Joined Sep 2005
52 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guidoracer View Post
We were thinking only the TrackStar motor for two reasons: price ($33), and minimal tuning opportunities/options. I have other 17.5 motors for my SC truck, like the Schuur Speed, which has optional rotors for tuning -- we want to avoid someone spending $90 for a motor then another $43 for a high-RPM rotor.
With those two different motors, I think all you would see is the need to run a different gear ratio but little difference in overall lap time. That's what we've seen in the UK.

In essence I think it all depends on what you are trying to achieve. To me personally, a control motor makes more sense in a single make class with control tyres etc etc. In the UK our stock class is a lot more open and we have the latest high-end bikes on the latest high-end tyres racing against homemade bikes on previous generation tyres. Worrying too much about the motor just seems a little single issue and as all the latest motors last so well, it doesn't even focus on the greatest element of cost.

Be that as it may the TrackStar motors have been run in the bikes over here and are fine in terms of speed and people are very happy with them.

I guess you are looking at more of a Moto-2 solution (ie single motor - Honda) versus our Moto-3 approach (ie single specification of motor but different makes - Honda vs KTM vs Mahindra) - each has its relative merits.

One thing we have found is that the speedos make more of a difference than the motors, especially with the brakes. On some of the cheaper speedos the brakes can be rather on-off and that upsets the bikes. The top end speedos all seem to have smooth brakes and of the budget ones the Hobbywing Justock gets rave reviews.

I would also say that since we allowed brushless in our stock class the number of entries has grown and continues to do so.
SteveLeake is online now Find More Posts by SteveLeake
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29, 2015, 04:04 AM
Gartenzwerg is offline
Find More Posts by Gartenzwerg
Registered User
Gartenzwerg's Avatar
Austria
Joined Jan 2007
677 Posts
First thing I suggest when creating a stock class:
Make a definition!
Write somewhere down if it is:
a) a beginner class, that tries to keep the speed and cost down
or
b) a racing class that tries to make a level playing field by limiting the motor and or weight/tires/...

This may sound similar, but from experience from a lot of discussion about the worlds stock rules, it is very important to define the goal of the class!
This just makes sure everyone is on the same page.
Gartenzwerg is offline Find More Posts by Gartenzwerg
Reply With Quote
Old May 01, 2015, 02:25 AM
z_dad is online now
Find More Posts by z_dad
Kungsangen, Stockholm, Sweden
z_dad's Avatar
Sweden, Upplands-Bro Municipality
Joined Dec 2011
287 Posts
Amen, as in "I agree comletely"!
My experience from years of managing races and adjusting rules for rc (a lot in the 90's), is that you need a common platform to stand on, before discussing details in the rules or how the races should be run and results measured.
People tend to lose focus and start discussing an ideal world rather than founding a long lasting, easy-to-mange set of rules. Keep all rules as simple as possible and put in the limitations where they matter most. My vote is for any rules that bring more racers to the scene.
z_dad is online now Find More Posts by z_dad
Reply With Quote
Old May 01, 2015, 10:39 AM
Guidoracer is offline
Find More Posts by Guidoracer
Registered User
Guidoracer's Avatar
United States, CA, LA
Joined Nov 2004
3,306 Posts
I appreciate all the input from the European guys with more experience with a stock class.

We decided to add this class to be able to get more track time with a class that had a level playing field in power that would be competitive and enjoyable for all of us regardless of experience. Since we threw it together kind of quickly, we didn't flesh things out like weight or a tire spec, but just kept it to the basics -- a slow hand-out motor and no front brake. I feel that for our purposes and that our race sessions are few and far between, keeping the rules limited to these two items is all we really need. We've all proven that we can drive competitively slow, so we really just want to bring in a cheap slightly faster motor to liven things up a bit.
Guidoracer is offline Find More Posts by Guidoracer
Reply With Quote
Old May 01, 2015, 01:29 PM
katana2665 is online now
Find More Posts by katana2665
Registered User
katana2665's Avatar
Guilford, Ct.
Joined Jan 2004
1,698 Posts
What's your current handout?
katana2665 is online now Find More Posts by katana2665
Reply With Quote
Old May 01, 2015, 01:32 PM
rskip is online now
Find More Posts by rskip
Registered User
United States, TX, Houston
Joined Jun 2006
310 Posts
axial 27t brushed

-rskip
rskip is online now Find More Posts by rskip
Reply With Quote
Old May 01, 2015, 03:03 PM
TopDave is offline
Find More Posts by TopDave
MY '75 CZ "FALTA REPLICA" 2010
TopDave's Avatar
Waterford, Michigan
Joined May 2006
1,310 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guidoracer View Post
I appreciate all the input from the European guys with more experience with a stock class.

We decided to add this class to be able to get more track time with a class that had a level playing field in power that would be competitive and enjoyable for all of us regardless of experience. Since we threw it together kind of quickly, we didn't flesh things out like weight or a tire spec, but just kept it to the basics -- a slow hand-out motor and no front brake. I feel that for our purposes and that our race sessions are few and far between, keeping the rules limited to these two items is all we really need. We've all proven that we can drive competitively slow, so we really just want to bring in a cheap slightly faster motor to liven things up a bit.
Hey Lito,
If I was a "Left Coaster" or any where near there (!) I would vote for the 17.5 with a "Blinky" rule. Everyone already has a brushless set up of some kind already installed in their bikes and would actually be pretty cheap to come up with a 17.5 motor if you don't already have one. If you only have one bike the motor swap is easy and if you are lucky enough to have two race bikes you'll be able to dedicate a lot more time to each bikes set-ups and practice. I know from last year's National, I was humping to get the MOTORS, GEARING, AND ESCs swapped between heats!
TopDave is offline Find More Posts by TopDave
Reply With Quote
Old May 01, 2015, 05:15 PM
JohnnyMc is online now
Find More Posts by JohnnyMc
RC Dirt Bike Action
JohnnyMc's Avatar
California central coast
Joined Feb 2010
1,892 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopDave View Post
Hey Lito,...I know from last year's National, I was humping to get the MOTORS, GEARING, AND ESCs swapped between heats!
And they say the left coasters are out there.
JohnnyMc is online now Find More Posts by JohnnyMc
Reply With Quote
Old May 02, 2015, 04:01 AM
TopDave is offline
Find More Posts by TopDave
MY '75 CZ "FALTA REPLICA" 2010
TopDave's Avatar
Waterford, Michigan
Joined May 2006
1,310 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMc View Post
And they say the left coasters are out there.
Yeah Johnny, we hump a lot here in the mid west snow belt indoors in the winter and outdoors in the summer time.....
TopDave is offline Find More Posts by TopDave
Reply With Quote
Old May 02, 2015, 07:37 AM
katana2665 is online now
Find More Posts by katana2665
Registered User
katana2665's Avatar
Guilford, Ct.
Joined Jan 2004
1,698 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rskip View Post
axial 27t brushed

-rskip
A motor designed for all terrain vehicles?

To agree with everyone else...a 17.5T would be my vote too. There are plenty of them out there at budget prices.
katana2665 is online now Find More Posts by katana2665
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rave 70mm 10 blade cs edf units $12.90 and stocked in u.s.a dumbthumbbum Hot Online Deals 0 Jan 01, 2015 01:41 AM
For Sale U.S Army Mig-27 Drone (New Old Stock 1984) FPV?? ZIIguy FPV Equipment (FS/W) 16 Feb 07, 2014 12:05 PM
Discussion 2007 Micro Pylon Class (rule changes) pdawg High Performance 235 Jan 20, 2008 12:40 PM
Discussion New Union To Rule U.S.A? Buzz Life, The Universe, and Politics 35 Jul 24, 2007 02:18 AM