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Old Jul 06, 2014, 03:16 AM
MrE
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United States, WA, Gig Harbor
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Has anyone tried an electric F3B contest?

I think it would be fun to try an F3B contest as a variation from ALES.

Adding in the distance and speed elements on top of duration really appeals to me for some reason.

If I did an F3B contest, Id consider changing a couple of rules to allow for e-power.

Where ever re-launching was allowed I would change that to re-start. However, I would add a one lap penalty for doing the re-start in the distance and speed categories.

Sound interesting?
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Old Jul 06, 2014, 06:28 AM
the flying is good
dephela's Avatar
USA, CT, Hamden
Joined Oct 2002
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Speed, only one launch. That will speed up the contest.
Distance, no penalty, relaunches should be optional and maybe shorten the working time.
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Old Jul 06, 2014, 07:19 AM
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F5b?
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Old Jul 06, 2014, 10:44 AM
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United States, CA, Folsom
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Oh boy, a return to the horsepower race days of F5B. Good luck with this one.
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Old Jul 06, 2014, 11:05 AM
MrE
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United States, WA, Gig Harbor
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Hmmmm. I forgot about F5B - which I dont like.

Might have to re-think this one

Thanks guys!
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Old Jul 07, 2014, 07:35 PM
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Joined Oct 2003
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Mr E,
There is the beginning of event that may interest you. Similar to GPS Triangle racing done with 33% scale models.
They use 4 meter Electro models and fly trinagle races using the RC3000 style units. Start is via Electric motor. Since there is a starting gate max altittude and speed, horsepower is irrelevant. Multiple planes n the course should prove fun racing. The new Baudis model could be used in this class..LJ
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Old Jul 07, 2014, 08:45 PM
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United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrE View Post
I think it would be fun to try an F3B contest as a variation from ALES.

Adding in the distance and speed elements on top of duration really appeals to me for some reason.

If I did an F3B contest, Id consider changing a couple of rules to allow for e-power.

Where ever re-launching was allowed I would change that to re-start. However, I would add a one lap penalty for doing the re-start in the distance and speed categories.

Sound interesting?
F5B has changed a lot since the early days---the distance task is longer as is the duration part. The planes are larger as well as lighter----power is ample to get them going 7000 watts in a 2000 gram model makes for a quick climbing plane.

The number of climbs is limited in distance so strategy is important as is reading the conditions and taking advantage f possible. The amount of energy is also limited with devices that measure what is used-- and when the limit is reached the motor is disabled---or a penalty is applied.

LiPo batteries have leveled the playing field with anyone being able to get a competitive model going without having to be too much of a geek. Give it another look---you might like what is has become.

Steve
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Old Jul 08, 2014, 05:29 PM
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Sweden, Piteň
Joined Aug 2008
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yes we have

Up in the north of sweden we have 5-6 competitions per year. I think its about 5-6years since the first competition.

Compared with normal F3B FAI we have the following changes to simplify and give simpler models a chance to participate=more competitors will try this lovely sport. We dont fly mixed FAI/Electric.

-Launching: We have decided to remove the launch as part of the competition. Rules says max 30s of motor, max 200m start height. Altitude is measured with logger for instance Altis V4. Starting height over 200m gives penalty points.
The rules are designed to not reward the pilot with the highest power or motor efficiency. A simple directdrive outrunner motor is just fine.

-Ballast: We have set rules so that the weight of the airplane must not be altered between thermals, distance, speed.
The rules are set so that you do not have to build a super light fragile aircraft and use the smallest motor with the highest efficiency and use minimal sized LIPO. Due to the fact that many of electrified planes lack the ability to ballast.

If I summarize the rules we tried to control the rules so that it is the pilot's flying skills to make the difference, not the one with the best electric setup or lightest model. The goal is that the rules benefit the use of a "standard" F3B model and also better allow use of an beginners F3B model ex. the Vitesse.

-Thermals: Is clearly a major challenge compared to F3B FAI when you only have 200m start height and additionally flies with the ballast you use in distance and speed. With increased weight the landing also clearly more difficult.
But in all honesty, how often it is not so that the F3B FAI thermals becomes a boring landing contest ? It is still a fact that you mostly have to fly full time to get the 1000 at our competions despite using a 3+kg Ceres from 200m. Your kind of forced to find som lift to survive the 10 minutes, but thats just what I think thermalling is all about.
-Distance: Here is the difference is less compared to FAI rules. The lower starting height makes us fly somewhat slower with lesser laps as result. In good weather I have still done 25-27 laps but the median result is about 9-12 laps.

-Speed ​​Lower starting height and less than full ballast naturally makes the speed lower. Maybe not as spectacular, but it will allow simpler models can participate and be quite competetive.
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Old Jul 08, 2014, 11:23 PM
MrE
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Thanks for all the feed back guys! More to think about for sure
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 07:24 AM
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Ed Franz's Avatar
USA, KY, Burlington
Joined Sep 2001
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That sounds like a fun event the way you fly it pednor. I would be open it giving it a try here in the US., future Nats event? :-)

Ed
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 08:55 AM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,646 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
Mr E,
There is the beginning of event that may interest you. Similar to GPS Triangle racing done with 33% scale models.
They use 4 meter Electro models and fly trinagle races using the RC3000 style units. Start is via Electric motor. Since there is a starting gate max altittude and speed, horsepower is irrelevant. Multiple planes n the course should prove fun racing. The new Baudis model could be used in this class..LJ
I am beginning to experiment with the RC3000 system in planes suitable for ALES and F5J. This is a remarkable system which allows competition data to be transmitted to the ground.

As Larry mentioned, it is set up to facilitate RC scale triangle racing. For these events, competitors program in the principal course heading and course size -- something that can be done easily on site or by using preprogrammed SIMM cards. Each competitor's ground based receiver is initiated at launch and the information needed to know your position and time on the course can be read from a color LCD on the ground (I have used it in full sunlight quite satisfactorily). The ground based unit reads out your scoring information when you land.

The system, which also performs altitude/time logging and switching like our current switches weighs about 25 grams and can be easily fit into slender fuselages like my Maxa.

AND NOW FOR THE GOOD PART

Besides being programmed for GPS Triangle Racing, the system has programs which allow the user to fly the F3B speed and distance courses. All the user has to do is go through a very simple procedure to establish the course heading -- the system does everything else and allows the pilot to launch, fly the course and land without any outside flag men or such. And the system furnishes the scores at the end of the flight.

I will be testing the system and reporting here fairly soon. I am a little concerned about GPS scoring on the F3B speed course because of the relationship between timing accuracy and GPS response time at high speeds. Perhaps getting the speed program modified to account for more required laps would slow things down and solve the problem.

At any rate, it looks to me like we are on the threshold of having systems which will allow us to fly distance and maybe speed tasks with no more outside support than that which is now required for thermal duration.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 11:50 AM
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Coopersburg, PA
Joined Sep 2001
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May as well bring this up here. I've been playing around with an idea at the local school yard with a Radian equipped with a GPS sensor.

Full blown GPS triangle racing using aerotowed 1:3 scale ships really intrigues me but the entry cost is pretty large. If we substitute our electric ALES ships that helps, but the telemetry systems are still around $1k. I'm sure we could get a couple dozen guys in the US to fly something like this but I don't think it would ever generate mass appeal.

It's a shame to have to drop a lot of cash on a separate telemetry system when many of our current radios already have a perfectly good telemetry link, and most brands have reasonably priced GPS modules. So, I picked one up and started playing with it and thinking about what could be done with it. I investigated the various radio manufacturers and most will give you current distance from a starting point, say you, or the center of the field.

I've tried a few different variations so far. The first is two concentric circles, the inner one 50 meters in diameter and the outer one 250m in diameter (I know, not that far but remember I am talking a Radian here). I gave myself a window and tried to see how many laps I could fly from inner circle to outer circle and back again, any direction I want. I know whether I'm inside or outside a circle by my distance telemetry.

The next variation was to force myself to hit each quadrant of the outer circle, i.e. start in the center, fly north to you hit the outer circle, back to the inner, west to the outer circle, back to the inner, etc. This was definitely a lot harder since you're forced to fly legs into the wind.

The last variation was to have two imaginary planes lined up perpendicularly to the field, one 250m to the left and one 250m to the right. A lap consists of flying off to the left until I hit the 250m mark, then to the right until I again hit 250m, then back to the start. I have my radio set up to notify me when I hit 250m and I usually pushed a little farther just to make sure I crossed the plane (later verified using GPS logs).

Personally I liked the 3rd way with the two parallel planes the best. What's fun is you need to decide when you're going to shoot for making your laps and when you're going to stop and thermal to pick up needed altitude. A contest using this format could be run pretty loosely. There doesn't need to be a limit on the launch, just on the altitude that you start the course at. You could have windows where you launch and complete as many laps as you can in say 30 minutes, or just have the whole day to launch whenever you want and see how many laps you can do in 3, 4, or 5 30 minute chunks.

I don't know that this type of format could ever be as wildly popular as ALES, but by using some reasonably priced equipment, we have some interesting new options available to us.

Randy
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 01:04 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,646 Posts
The RC3000 system I am using cost $800 -- and as you observed, probably not low enough to have widespread appeal. One of the things I will experiment with is a compact instrument pod that could be easily swapped between planes.

When I started looking at this I ran across some alternatives that, with some programming skills, could be made to work. Right now the gear is there just waiting for programming (and debugging).

I am guessing that within two or three years it will be possible to accomplish this for an incremental cost over existing gear of around $300.

Happy Landings,

Don

BTW: The RC3000 already has the full capability to fly speed or distance courses between two imaginary planes as you described. The ground based receiver will even give you a countdown warning and "turn" instructions as you approach imaginary plane.
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 05:33 PM
the flying is good
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USA, CT, Hamden
Joined Oct 2002
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I've liked the idea of eF3B as presented by the Euro's and almost ready to go for a plane like that. I've flown B for a long time and still fly the tasks when I go to the field. I can't put these ideas that are coming up into the same category as F3B, what you're talking about is something completely different. They don't have much interest for me either.

Dennis
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 09:44 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,646 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dephela View Post
I've liked the idea of eF3B as presented by the Euro's and almost ready to go for a plane like that. I've flown B for a long time and still fly the tasks when I go to the field. I can't put these ideas that are coming up into the same category as F3B, what you're talking about is something completely different. They don't have much interest for me either.

Dennis
Actually, the RC3000 system has the capability of being installed in a typical ALES/F5J plane and more or less exactly emulating the F3B tasks as you know them without the need for sighting gates, flagmen and external timers. In fact, it is possible to use the system and practice the tasks without ANY outside assistance.

Happy Landings,

Don
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