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Old Feb 05, 2002, 01:24 AM
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Sydney
Joined Jan 2002
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TM IPS motor 'blipping'

Okay E-zoners, here's a question from a New-guy

I'm running a TM with a GWS 100ICS (?), radio is JR XF631, standard receiver.

I notice that every now and again in flight the motor will 'miss' or 'blip' (perhaps skip a beat??). Whatever you a call it. Is this common? Perhaps 'spiking' is the best word.

My radio is brand new so I have nothing to compare performance wise but perhaps it has a fault? I maintain flight control at all times but expect you would with infrequent 'spiking'. (Oh, yes, I tend to lose control when I hand the freakin' transmitter over to my gimboid mates who drive my TM into the ground....but you know what I mean....) see earlier post if you don't....

Can you get incompatabilities with ESCs and receiver?

If it's the radio, I'm covered by warranty but I thought I'd run it past you all before I send the radio back on a wild goose chase.
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 02:23 AM
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Homer Glen, Illinois, United States
Joined Sep 2001
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Motor Spiking

Ratbait,
Check your plugs to be sure they are a snug fit. I have seen some that are fairly loose and they get an intermittent connection which could cause your problem. Try putting a small piece of tape around your plugs to hold them together.
T6
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 02:29 AM
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Port Stephens NSW Australia
Joined Dec 2001
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Ok Ratbait, now I don't want to scare you or anything.

Technical term for this is called "glitching" and refers to a problem with the radio reception.
Can be caused by many things,antenna problems,receiver problems,transmitter problems etc etc .....................BUT

I can tell you now from experience that EVERY time it has happened to me it has been a sign of impending motor failure.
I assume what happens is as the motor fails it starts to "arc" at the brushes which causes the "glitch".

Now it could be any one of the other causes, but if you have a gws tiger moth then I can almost gaurantee that it is the motor failing.
We have discussed this topic and filled gigabytes of ezone server with possible causes and cures, but the only thing I can recommend for sure is to get yourself some spare carbon brush motors from kellets $22 / each.

Regards

AussieParkflyer
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 03:27 AM
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Sydney
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Okay APF....Thankyou for the insight.....remaining calm.....staying cool...oh, yeah, I redefine the name 'Mr Cool'.........err....could you all just excuse me for just a sec... have to take care of something minor....AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!

Whew! That's better! I've said it before, and I'll say it again....Bugger! But if it is impending motor failure, I'm glad I don't have to send the radio away.

Perhaps this is a good excuse to try out the TM 280?? I've been told I can get a Graupner 280 foe less than $20 Aus.

Hmmm....The brain cogs revolve....
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 03:39 AM
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Port Stephens NSW Australia
Joined Dec 2001
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I would LOVE to hear some reports on the 280 Moth.

I have just received my second Moth kit from kellets but I was too scared ( read=indecisive) to get the 280.
Ive read lots of conflicting theories so far but thats the problem.........they are all theories!
I havent seen one single report from a pilot who actually has one

Oh well time will tell.

One thing I did find strange was that the GWS IPS motor -gearbox combo for the Moth is $45.95 !!
But yet the GWS 280 combo is only $26.95? Weird

Anyway lets wait and see
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 05:02 AM
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cincinati, oh
Joined Jul 2001
216 Posts
Well

i dont know..mine has been doing that since day 1..and that was on a litestik..now that engine is on my tiger and the engine probably has 50+ flights on it..a lot with 8 cells. Still "misses", but never ever had a loss of control or anything.....so it might be glitches, but mine does it and is fine
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 06:48 AM
jah
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North Georgia
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Ratbait, whats a "standard receiver"? If you mean the GWS RP4, there are reports of the throttle channel "glitching" on these. I have 3 of these RXs, that have been in 3 different planes. All 3 planes will have the motor sound like it is shutting on and off. Another way to describe it, I will be at a constant throttle setting as I make a pass overhead. I hear it briefly shut off (millisecs maybe), then go back to the prior RPM. It does this a few times in a couple seconds, then settles down to constant RPM.
NOTE: I thought I had bad motors, so switched them out. This was done on 2 different TigerMoths (IPS systems), and a flying wing with a Speed280BB. Made no difference, I then switched one of the RXs, to no avail. The weird thing is it doesn't seem to affect the other channels! I heard the people that fixed this went to a dual conversion RX, and the problem went away. It also was said this same problem happened to the Hitec Feather (another single conversion RX) so its not a "brand" or "company" issue.

So far I am just living with it, wonder if it does have something to do with "arcing" being inducted into the wiring from the ESC?

Bottom line, I have only been at this R/C airplane stuff since October of last year, so I really don't know the answer.

Good Luck
Jerry
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 07:48 AM
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St. Pete, Florida
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I agree with JAH, every plane I've used a GWS R4P in has done the exact same thing you are talking about. The motors take a microsecond hit and the other channels seem okay. I've used three different R4Ps on two different channels in three different planes and the same thing happens to all of them. My two planes with a HiTec 555 and an FMS X5 never get these glitches. I've concluded that it is some kind of outside interference. The glitches always happen in the same places. It's like running over an invisible speed bump or going through an invisible fence.

One spot is in my backyard and another is at my favorite flying field. As long as I avoid the known spots I don't get any glitches. Somethimes I wonder if I live too close to the Bermuda Triangle.

Another reason that experienced flyers take for granted is that all radios have a dead spot in the signal off the end of your antenna. Try to NOT point the antenna at the plane.

I've also noticed the glitching when a motor is going bad but it gets to be frequent and gets worse as it wears further. Eventually getting to where it affects the control channels too.

This has been discussed quite a bit in different threads and it looks like most GWS and Feather recievers will do this in SOME areas and as long as it's not causing you problems it's not a very big deal.

Yes it bugs me, but I'm getting used to it, and apparently it is normal in some places.

Best of luck,

BC
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 12:47 PM
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Mackay Queensland Australia
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Same here. I get glitches and try to live with them. I also get them at certain parts of my backyard/flying field.

In my case they also affect the control servos so the plane takes a quick dip.

I tend to think it's a speed control related problem. Wayne's world On E-zone had an article on it once and suggested it was due to the ESC's BEC not supplying enough power to the servos. His fix was a tricky servo hack and placed a small resistor in line with, something, I forget what, to reduce the current the servo was drawing. Considering how small and fiddly modern servos are I wouldn't recommend it.

I don't think that's the reason for all glitches, some can be minimised by receiver/ESC/servo proximity.

I've only been getting them since I've been flying with ESC's. In the bad old days when we just had switches for motor control I never had any glitches.
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 03:14 PM
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Sydney
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Thanks for your input everyone. Sorry about not being clear regarding the receiver. What I mean is that it is the JR receiver that came with the radio.

From what you have all said, this sounds like a common problem in one form or another. I'll live with it and see what happens with other model/motor/ESC combos.
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 04:00 PM
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Colorado Front Range, USA, EARTH, Sol system, Milkyway Galaxy
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I will second the dead spot on the TX.

My moth with a 4p and an eclipse 7
will glitch the motor when I am pointed (antenna)
just below the plane and about 50 feet away flying
twards (up to maybe 10 deg off) me.

I tried a hitec feather and same deal.

I can repeat this over and over and over.
I don't have any other motor glitches.

Now ask me about chan 1.
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Old Feb 05, 2002, 08:01 PM
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Northwest Ohio
Joined Jan 2002
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I know glitching!

Not to Worry. I have this occasionally with my TM. Never a loss of control, just a split second "blip", just like you described. Brand new Focus 4, new ESC, etc. It'll go 10 flights and not do it, then on the next flight it will. I've stopped worrying about it.

Now if you want to talk glitching, and I'm talkin' man sized, world class, shake the rafters glitching, we'll discuss my old Controlaire Galloping Ghost rig. For those that don't have a clue what I'm talking about, be thankful for the modern radios of today!

Scott

TM fans, check out the new Squadron T-shirts on the website:

www.tigermothsquadron.com
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Old Feb 06, 2002, 02:56 AM
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Nevada City CA
Joined Nov 2001
497 Posts
TigerMoth GWS 4P Rx glitches

Agree with Basketcase and others, that there are areas near the ground that the glitch always happens, even with my Dual conversion Rx's. Luckily the TM just jerks around and keeps on flying right along. Seems to be worse as the Li-on's start to get low, usually after a half hour or more flight.

The best part is that I have never noticed any glitches up high, very smooth flight, and man, we get these TM's into some killer thermals that take full power and nearly full down elevator for 30 seconds to escape from.

That's using the 19" antenae too.

What a great ship! Yes, I have a second that awaits the Full "TIGER" treatment that I "spotted" on a scale competition TM in the latest Model Aviation News.

Check out the wood-grain prop! Brown and black Sharpie marker, very distintive and realistic. About a minute to do.

TK
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Old Feb 06, 2002, 06:14 AM
ESB
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PGH,PA.GO STEELERS
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motor glitches

mine was doing the same thing, try checking the solder joints on end bell. i found that my black wire came unsoldered and the only thing holding it was that little dot of glue.
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Old Feb 06, 2002, 07:02 AM
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Ulsteinvik, Norway
Joined Nov 2001
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I have this kind of "glitching" sometimes, not just on my TM, but on several different smaller planes with different motors, ESC's and receivers.
What happens is that the motor seems to shut down for a split second, causing the "spike" you hear. Usually also the servos will move a little, but the TM is not that super responsive to fast control surface movements so you usually will not notice any movement. On faster, more responsive planes (sp280 and sp400 flying wings) the effect of the surface movements is noticable. I have had some near misses when flying close to the ground and these short glitches strike.

Some observations:
- It is clearly related to noise from the motor: These kind of glitches never occur on my non-powered planes.
- Location of motor/battery/leads/ESC with regards to receiver/antenna matters: Rearranging the power leads, receiver, antenna etc. fixed a more violent case I had on one plane with a speed 400..
- The orientation of the plane and the transmitter antenna matters: It occurs more often if the transmitter antenna is pointing in the direction of the plane and/or the plane is heading towards me.
- The number of glitches varies on different flying locations, some locations are worse than others and I also notice some local spots on each flying location where the glitches usually occur more frequently.
- The frequency of the glitches are variable, sometimes a whole flight almost without any, other times maybe several every minute.
- As far as I can tell I have no glitches when flying really close to my self.
- Glitching is worse when flying close to the ground, I think. (I usually fly pretty close to the ground with small planes, it is the most fun)

I find them to be not really a problem, but they are annoying and sound quite violent, especially on geared motors, so I worry a bit about wether they casue any damage to the motor/gear.

For receivers I usually use the GWS 4 channel or a Multiplex 5 channel single conversion (full range). I have had glitches like that on both these recievers.
It could also be related to the ESC. I have a GWS 2A ESC and a Dymond 5A ESC and a larger Multiplex 30A(?) ESC. I get get glitches on both the small ESCs but not on the Multiplex ESC in my TwinStar.
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