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Old Dec 18, 2009, 01:42 PM
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Hi Robert,
I'm sure Doug Lord was only trying to liven up debate all those years ago too
I think you will find that with all things considered with regards to any sport or hobby gaining new membership that just holding members in this day and age can be hard work. When compared to many other national organisations you may see that the MYA does not fair so badly. Maybe the same old faces would be happy to step aside if someone decided to step forward? Its an unfortunate position when holding office in an amatuer body as usually those who make the noise in opposition are nowhere to be found at election time.
I'm not knocking that you have some ideas of your own to try. Thats great! many people like Roger Stollery, John Simpson and Dave Creed are great advocates of trying the un-conventional. Why not join them? Don't hide behind excuses
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Old Dec 18, 2009, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gio06226 View Post
You may also consider another class to test, and prove your ideas, the M will allow the independent sail control and so will the USOM.
While the US1M may allow 4 function radio control, they (as a development class) restrict the ability to move a keel which a certain "someone" insisted would lead to a much faster boat around a closed pond course. Unfortunately the supposition overlooked issues like tacking duels where swinging a keel from side-to-side via servo was much slower than simply tacking! It also avoided the possibility (like foil borne craft) of pond weeds.

I think if a US1M were built to the desires of Mr. May - it would not fair well against the IOMs simply because of sail area differences. Instead, purchase of a glass IOM (perhaps from Asia) and simply follow ALL of the IOM rules "except" for the separate jib servo, and ask to be allowed to compete. Run it against the good guys - in a demo race before/after a points regatta and post results/photos.

As noted - my multihull will be using a separate jib servo to backwind the jib and help the boat to tack. It's not that it won't now, but with it tacking (especially in high wind) will be much faster and more precise. I do agree, also, with Mr. May that the ability to trim a jib on the water instead of the shore makes sense and is no doubt a benefit - but as soon as everyone is using a third servo jib adjustment - I guess we are back where we are today. Everything is equal once again and it comes down to the skippers ability to steer, find windshifts, and play tactics. None of these skills seem to be better served or improved with a jib servo - especially if the idea being used on a fleet of boats. If - after the modification to 3 servos, all boats of a fleet are back to sailing in their respective finishing order as they were with only 2 servos - all that has transpired is an additional cost, additional and possible equipment malfunctions, and yet one more line to control by a singlehanded skipper who sails without crew. To me, a video display back tot he skipper from the boat would be a greater benefit to see tell-tales and improve mark rounds by being close enough to see/judge distances from the other side of the pond. Seems that would be of a greater benefit to a singlehanded skipper in making it around a course as quickly as possible.

Then again - that performance supposition is also just that ...... until it is tried and proven.
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Old Dec 18, 2009, 03:24 PM
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Thought I would share a pic of a couple of IOMs in light wind. Boat in front is a Brad Gibson Southern Cross 4. The other one is a V6. Pic taken by AvidJeeper of the Hansen Dam Irregulars.
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Old Dec 18, 2009, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchicken View Post
Hi Robert,
I'm sure Doug Lord was only trying to liven up debate all those years ago too
I think you will find that with all things considered with regards to any sport or hobby gaining new membership that just holding members in this day and age can be hard work. When compared to many other national organisations you may see that the MYA does not fair so badly. Maybe the same old faces would be happy to step aside if someone decided to step forward? Its an unfortunate position when holding office in an amatuer body as usually those who make the noise in opposition are nowhere to be found at election time.
I'm not knocking that you have some ideas of your own to try. Thats great! many people like Roger Stollery, John Simpson and Dave Creed are great advocates of trying the un-conventional. Why not join them? Don't hide behind excuses
I am not knocking the MYA, I haven't done so wouldn't dream of doing so, my points are raised only to show that the contentment that the rules are fine as they are is actually (to me) making IOM dull, and I feel the rules themselves defeat their own objective of leveling the playing field in terms of money investment. If the RYA would consider a development series of races that would be a big step in kindly my enthusiasm to drive at least 200 miles to one of the clubs mentioned.

As one of the few on these forums prepared to use their own name I hardly think I am the sort of person hide behind anything. I am very open about what I think and why I think it, I always post my mistakes along with my triumphs. The last time I got into this conversation I was asked to prove what I was saying, as requested I hauled up and did just that.

These are not my ideas they keep coming round and round, my point there is that folk are blindly forking out money on the "latest" re-release of an old idea in the vain hope of being at the front of the fleet. Until those folk stop and understand what they are buying and why that bad idea from 10 years ago is suddenly a good idea after all, there is no point in shelling out another penny.
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Old Dec 18, 2009, 06:59 PM
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Hi Robert,
This is where your logic becomes a little unclear. After taking a look at a recent thread on the MYA forum titled best IOM, it shows that actually one of the very best current designs 'widget' was designed back in 95. (I guess this is what you refer to?) Now 14 years on, updated versions can be bought in kit form at a fraction of some other boats.

How can a boat that won International races when first designed in 95 and still be winning them 14years later be seen as a bad idea at any stage. Was good then and is still good now and reasonably priced. Nobody blindly forking out as no matter ahet the class in any type of yacht racing, people will always want the opportunity to buy what is currently the trend.

Maybe you can elaborate on what was bad and is now good in case I have it wrong?
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Old Dec 19, 2009, 01:16 AM
k4s
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I feel the rules themselves defeat their own objective of leveling the playing field in terms of money investment.

In the search for clarity,(I'm a bit thick after a day in the sun racing IOM's around the pond,which just happens to be a 2.5 hour drive away)can you please explain what this means?

Thanks in advance,
Richard
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Old Dec 19, 2009, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchicken View Post
Hi Robert,
This is where your logic becomes a little unclear. After taking a look at a recent thread on the MYA forum titled best IOM, it shows that actually one of the very best current designs 'widget' was designed back in 95. (I guess this is what you refer to?) Now 14 years on, updated versions can be bought in kit form at a fraction of some other boats.

How can a boat that won International races when first designed in 95 and still be winning them 14years later be seen as a bad idea at any stage. Was good then and is still good now and reasonably priced. Nobody blindly forking out as no matter ahet the class in any type of yacht racing, people will always want the opportunity to buy what is currently the trend.

Maybe you can elaborate on what was bad and is now good in case I have it wrong?
I don't look at the MYA site so it is purely a coincidence that they have an article on the Widget. Where I was trying to take this discussion is why that 14 year old design which was based on a design that was around 15 years before that can still be competitive. I want to open up a discussion that has been had a hundred times over the years about what makes a good boat.

Anyone who has read this trhread will find evidence of folk who will just shell out for the latest whatever in one case a whole fleet.
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchicken View Post
Hi Robert,
This is where your logic becomes a little unclear. After taking a look at a recent thread on the MYA forum titled best IOM, it shows that actually one of the very best current designs 'widget' was designed back in 95. (I guess this is what you refer to?) Now 14 years on, updated versions can be bought in kit form at a fraction of some other boats.

How can a boat that won International races when first designed in 95 and still be winning them 14years later be seen as a bad idea at any stage. Was good then and is still good now and reasonably priced. Nobody blindly forking out as no matter ahet the class in any type of yacht racing, people will always want the opportunity to buy what is currently the trend.

Maybe you can elaborate on what was bad and is now good in case I have it wrong?
Sorry it taken me a few hours to understand what you were asking.

It wasn't me who was saying that any older design is bad, it is the "Must buy the latest thing" brigade who deem that things are bad ideas. 10 years ago Australian Skiffs became the latest "must have" replacing boats like Widget as the "in thing" If I was to build a boat with everything I have been talking about it would look very similar to Widget but with slightly broader shoulders and a slightly narrower waist.
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 12:51 PM
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Hi Robert,

I think you would be pretty close to the money if you did design something closer to what you have mentioned.

In the 'Emo" thread i did try to explain why the Australian TS2 design was so successful. It was its ability to hold on to its rigs for much longer upwind and then its further advantage of a lower presented sail that would ensure it was superior downwind as it did not nosedive until everyone was laying flat. It was regarded as a heavy wind boat and seen as a breakthrough design. What was not realised was that the low cockpit and a rig set nearly 2" lower than all the conventional flat decked boats was its real advantage.
Once designers in the UK woke up to this old boats gained a new lease of life with the myth of the superior wide boat quashed.
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 05:00 PM
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It is too cold in the workshop to be putting more planks in at moment so I might just run a few figures and do a bit more skethinking (a quick sketch to visualise an idea).
Up in the EDF forum it is fairly easy to drop onto what is considered the best motor/fan combination and why it is the best. (Concidentally the Australian Stumax fan is very well considered, there is definitely something in their water) Putting brand loyalties aside who is genuinely considered as making the best sails? and who is making the best mast?
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 07:09 PM
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Best Sails? Bantock, Housemartin, Smith, Gibson all consistantly found at the front end in big events over a number of years. Many more in other parts of the world that fit in with those mentioned. As for masts, the 11mm Bantock mast still rates highly but needs some bend in it as is quite soft. Housemartin tubes are a bit stiffer. Some are now trying hi tensile tubes from the glider industry with mixed success.
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 02:40 AM
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Best sails BG (Brad Gibson) 1st, 2nd and 5th at the worlds speaks for it's self
http://www.bgsailsanddesign.com/news.htm
Agree about sailsetc mast very flexable
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 04:04 AM
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Thank you, Graham has had good reputation for sails going back nearly 40 years so I thought he would be one of the better coices but without sitting on the fence, in your opinion, one of the 4 mentioned must be a tad better than the others, which one is it? If you can't, (because of position on a governing council etc reason) or or don't want to state a preference (you want to preserve your competitive edge over me) I understand fully but I can't see how 4 or so manufacturers can all be much of a muchness.

In the EDF world it is common knowledge that Daniel Schubeler is the out and out supremo at providing a range of fans that are beautifully crafted, reliable and efficient, he sets the benchmark for the others to aim for. If Graham Bantock is still the man for sails I am happy to applaud him for that achievement, to have that acknowledged should inpire his commercial competition to raise it's game. If all of those 4 truly are at the top of their game and one's results are not going to be affected by sail choice that is fantastic and I applaud them all. It might be that customer service, reliablity. or delivery is the deciding factor but one of them will be better than the others. In model helicopters one of the reatilers sells fantastic stuff but his attitude is shocking, never sending stuff on time, and real sniffy when there is a problem. He is a sole importer and I will avoid the brand rather than put a single penny in his pocket.

I haven't stood beside a pond for 10 years and haven't watched results to know who is the best choice for sails and if I were to build a boat I can understand why no-one would want to tell me, however again I am thinking of the folk who might be considering racing model yachts. Some folk will choose to buy the cheapest sails they can find, some want the best, others want what's "in". I can't seem to find an objective review or discussion about sails, if there is such discussion from the recent past I would appreciate a link.

Regards

Robert
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by 8387mike View Post
Best sails BG (Brad Gibson) 1st, 2nd and 5th at the worlds speaks for it's self
http://www.bgsailsanddesign.com/news.htm
Agree about sailsetc mast very flexable
Thank you, those look really nice! presumably the lead time is down to demand? Its a nice site too. There is one photgraph on that site which visually sums up what I have been banging on about, an unbalanced boat with a powerful draggy rudder. The sails are doing what there are designed to do (Almost too well) but the hull is is just heating up the water.
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 04:40 AM
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Hi Robert,

There are probably in excess of 40 or so sail manufacturers for the IOM class worldwide with the ones mentioned being what I feel are the pick. Other skippers have had good results with other makes. If you are asking what I use, then BG is my choice at present.
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