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Old Oct 22, 2011, 10:48 PM
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Beats me then, usually you can at least adjust the gain to correct waggle of the controls.......my guess is that theres a 50% level dialed in thats too low to cause high gain errors. just enough to smooth things out somewhat.......
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Old Oct 22, 2011, 11:11 PM
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Beats me then, usually you can at least adjust the gain to correct waggle of the controls.......my guess is that theres a 50% level dialed in thats too low to cause high gain errors. just enough to smooth things out somewhat.......
Dave,

According to HH, they tuned the system for each airframe, so that we don't have to sort it all out. Same as the flybarless system on the mCP X. There is no means for the user to adjust the mCP X flybarless controller. You can't even adjust the gain on the mCP X's tail gyro. Nevertheless, the system works flawlessly. The mCP X flies as if on rails, handles a lot of wind, and it feels more like a 500-class bird than an ultra-micro.

Joel
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
Firehawk,

I'm taking about the Gee Bee & Beast bricks. You would need to adjust the mix & gain settings to fit your application - just like you do with a heli's tail gyro or flybarless controller. For instance, the Beast 3D & Gee Bee use different programming, and the bricks are not interchangeable because of this fact. Hopefully, they will release a programmable version in the future.

This system is no different than a flybarless controller on a heli - and they must be reprogrammed when they're moved from one brand/model/size of heli to another.

...
One thing to note: this is just about entirely an airplane forum (aside from a Picoo Z or the like), so mentions of adjusting a heli's tail gyro or flybarless controller are probably referring to concepts that are foreign to many in this forum (as is probably knowing what a flybar is).
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
One thing to note: this is just about entirely an airplane forum (aside from a Picoo Z or the like), so mentions of adjusting a heli's tail gyro or flybarless controller are probably referring to concepts that are foreign to many in this forum (as is probably knowing what a flybar is).
Pshaw, a flybar is on the second floor of a 747, everybody knows that.

So far we've been told repeatedly that the AS3X needs to be tuned precisely for each frame.

Why?

I mean I can see the system struggling with holding a heading if the control surfaces move too much: it would constantly oscillate.
But the AS3X isn't trying to do that, it's simply there to dampen any unwanted movement, reciprocating with control surfaces but not actually checking if the craft is back on original track.
So a gust causes the model to roll left 10 degrees in .4 seconds, the AS3X give opposite aileron until the 10 degree bank is compensated for, and then stops?
What exactly needs to be fine tuned?
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 07:40 AM
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So a gust causes the model to roll left 10 degrees in .4 seconds, the AS3X give opposite aileron until the 10 degree bank is compensated for, and then stops?
What exactly needs to be fine tuned?
I think the optimum of speed an precision and without oscillation is a complex nonlinear function an depends on divergence speed, intertia and other parameter.
I have a camera with sensor stabilisation and the lens tell the camera the focal lengh to adjust the stabilisation algorithm. For adapted old lens without electronic or incompatible types which can not communicate with the camera there is a custom setting in the camera for the focal length to give the best results. It works without the information but not with the best possible results.
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 07:42 AM
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I would want to think that it is actually checking to see when it's back on track. Pretty straightforward, wind rolls plane to left, a bit of right aileron until it straightens it out, wind blows nose up, a bit of down elev till it straightens it out, all in relationship to current established orientation. My real question would be is just how effective can it be concerning flying in wind. A 10-15 mph (especially if gusty) wind can have huge effect on a 2 ounce foam airplane with a 20" wingspan. If the plane weighed 5 pounds and could fly at 50-60 mph, I could see it, but just not sure what kind of wind you could expect it to be effective on with such light weight low speed airframe. Regardless of weight, it will try to work, but how effective it is is yet to be seen. I can see it being more effective for some 3d type moves in calmer air though. I will keep an open mind for now and anxiously await somebody in the groups I fly with to pick one up so I can see first hand what it does. I have bought every new um horizon came out with since I started this addiction almost a year ago, but will not be in line this time - this time I struck out, none of the bunch have anything to offer me - shucks. Just to add though, it may be a long wait, as everybody I have personally talked to seems to think Horizon dropped the ball big time for us current rc'ers this time and have no interest in the new offerings. Maybe it can bring some new folks into the game though by lowering the frustration level during the learning curve. But even there, I wonder, as based on what I have seen, these um's that weigh 3 oz or so are not going to be very durable if the new guy does manage to crash one. The difference in crashability between a um t28 or champ and a Beast are huge and add even more weight and it will get worse.
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
One thing to note: this is just about entirely an airplane forum (aside from a Picoo Z or the like), so mentions of adjusting a heli's tail gyro or flybarless controller are probably referring to concepts that are foreign to many in this forum (as is probably knowing what a flybar is).
FL,

Many of us on these micro threads also fly helis.

Joel
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 09:18 AM
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I would want to think that it is actually checking to see when it's back on track. Pretty straightforward, wind rolls plane to left, a bit of right aileron until it straightens it out, wind blows nose up, a bit of down elev till it straightens it out, all in relationship to current established orientation. My real question would be is just how effective can it be concerning flying in wind. A 10-15 mph (especially if gusty) wind can have huge effect on a 2 ounce foam airplane with a 20" wingspan. If the plane weighed 5 pounds and could fly at 50-60 mph, I could see it, but just not sure what kind of wind you could expect it to be effective on with such light weight low speed airframe. Regardless of weight, it will try to work, but how effective it is is yet to be seen. I can see it being more effective for some 3d type moves in calmer air though. I will keep an open mind for now and anxiously await somebody in the groups I fly with to pick one up so I can see first hand what it does. I have bought every new um horizon came out with since I started this addiction almost a year ago, but will not be in line this time - this time I struck out, none of the bunch have anything to offer me - shucks. Just to add though, it may be a long wait, as everybody I have personally talked to seems to think Horizon dropped the ball big time for us current rc'ers this time and have no interest in the new offerings. Maybe it can bring some new folks into the game though by lowering the frustration level during the learning curve. But even there, I wonder, as based on what I have seen, these um's that weigh 3 oz or so are not going to be very durable if the new guy does manage to crash one. The difference in crashability between a um t28 or champ and a Beast are huge and add even more weight and it will get worse.
Bobly,

Did you watch the video? There is a comparison of the two Beasts flying in gusty conditions. The system made a very obvious improvement in the flight-behavior.

I don't understand why anyone would feel let-down by this. Most of the seasoned pilots I've talked to are very happy about the new Beast & Gee Bee and the AS3X system. They have stayed away from micros because they don't fly anything like their larger nitro & gas ships. For the first time ever, we can now have true-scale UM planes that fly like their 1/3-scale and even full-scale counterparts. Many of us have been waiting 40-50 years for this to become a reality!!

Bring on the technology! I can hardly wait to see what the future holds!

Joel
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 09:30 AM
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Bring on the technology! I can hardly wait to see what the future holds!

Joel
It's not "what the future holds" as much as "what the AS3X will be holding in the near future"
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 09:57 AM
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It's not "what the future holds" as much as "what the AS3X will be holding in the near future"
RG,

LOL!

I hope that in the near future, the AS3X will be "holding" an entire line of exact-scale UM warbirds & g/a planes programmed to have unique 'flight personalities' that resemble the behavior of their full-scale counterparts - along with a stable of modern jets & VTOL craft that would otherwise be impossible to fly.

I've been waiting for this day since I was a little kid, adding adjustable control surfaces & extra wings to rubber-powered stick-planes back in the early 60s. It's about time!!

Joel
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 11:22 AM
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Joel, I guess everybody has their "thing". But the local club I belong to is almost exclusively big gasser guys. They have stayed completely away from the ultra micros not because of how they fly, but because they have no interest at all in "toys". When I started this last fall, I was the only one with an electric. And there was quite a fit in period, because even larger electrics were and still are "toys" to most of these guys. There are three of them who have since bought an electric and now fly them regularly - I'm making a dent I think. But even those still have a reluctance to accept ultra micros as anything more than toys. I have offered to let them fly some of mine even with the chance or probability of bringing it home crashed up, but they won't even consider. The other bunch that I fly with in a nearby town are 100% electric and fly everything from micros and up to 8 cell monsters. But the two groups are united in seeing nothing but disappointment and a waste of resources in Horizon's new offerings. The statement of most of the electric guys is that these toys aren't gonna sell well at Wal Mart as they are too expensive and the local hobby shop shows no interest in even carrying them. I am at least trying to be open minded about them with a wait and see attitude.
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 11:59 AM
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Joel, I guess everybody has their "thing". But the local club I belong to is almost exclusively big gasser guys. They have stayed completely away from the ultra micros not because of how they fly, but because they have no interest at all in "toys". When I started this last fall, I was the only one with an electric. And there was quite a fit in period, because even larger electrics were and still are "toys" to most of these guys. There are three of them who have since bought an electric and now fly them regularly - I'm making a dent I think. But even those still have a reluctance to accept ultra micros as anything more than toys. I have offered to let them fly some of mine even with the chance or probability of bringing it home crashed up, but they won't even consider. The other bunch that I fly with in a nearby town are 100% electric and fly everything from micros and up to 8 cell monsters. But the two groups are united in seeing nothing but disappointment and a waste of resources in Horizon's new offerings. The statement of most of the electric guys is that these toys aren't gonna sell well at Wal Mart as they are too expensive and the local hobby shop shows no interest in even carrying them. I am at least trying to be open minded about them with a wait and see attitude.
Bobly,

Attitudes will change. A similar thing happened when ARFs were introduced. Many of the early ARFs were poorly-designed, poorly-built, and heavy. As a result, they flew poorly, as well. Eventually, quality, jig-built ARFs started to show up. They rivaled most any kit-built plane, and flew better than the kits most of us built at home. Nonetheless, many of the old-school guys continued to look down on ARFs, and sometimes even those who flew them. Back in the 80s & early 90s, "ARFs are going to destroy the hobby" was an oft-heard statement at nearly every field from which I flew. When someone showed up at the field with a shiny new plane, the first question was often "Did you build that, or is it an ARF?"

Over time, even the most curmudgeonly of the anti-ARF crowd begrudgingly admitted that ARFs were probably OK, and that they might even be a teeny-tiny bit good for the hobby. Eventually, most finally admitted that they couldn't build a kit as straight & true as the better ARFs were built.

I believe the same will eventually happen in this case, but there will always be those who are unable or unwilling to separate their emotion & bias from logic.

I've seen similar things happen in two other hobbies of mine - ham radio & hot-rods. 10-20 years ago, most of the musclecar crowd told me that my '87 Buick Grand National (which does 0-60 in under 4 seconds) wasn't a real muscle-car because it came with a turbo and tuned-port fuel-injection. I don't get much of that nowadays - except from some of the really hardcore guys who still hate anything that doesn't have point-ignition & a four-barrel carb.

Joel
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
FL,

Many of us on these micro threads also fly helis.

Joel
Yes, many do (I am one of them).
But I was just pointing out that many do not, also.
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 03:31 PM
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By the way, not only do Beast 3D and Bee Gee web pages point to the same EFLU4864 Rx/3gyro board
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...prodDetailTabs
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...prodDetailTabs

the web page for EFLU4864 points to it being used in both the Beast 3D and Bee Gee
("The "DSM2 6 Ch Ultra Micro AS3X Receiver BL-ESC" is used in the following:")
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ickAccessories
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...rodID=EFLU4864

So, if this is a typo, it is a consistent typo on all 3 web-pages.

My guess is that the EFLU4864 is "de-tuned" to fly both the Beast 3D and Bee Gee, giving a goodly amount of gyro assistance to both, but not being "optimal" for either.
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
By the way, not only do Beast 3D and Bee Gee web pages point to the same EFLU4864 Rx/3gyro board
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...prodDetailTabs
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...prodDetailTabs

the web page for EFLU4864 points to it being used in both the Beast 3D and Bee Gee
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ickAccessories
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...rodID=EFLU4864

So, if this is a typo, it is a consistent typo on all 3 web-pages.

My guess is that the EFLU4864 is "de-tuned" to fly both the Beast 3D and Bee Gee, giving a goodly amount of gyro assistance to both, but not being "optimal" for either.
That is inconsistent with what the design team told us, however.

Joel
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