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Old Feb 02, 2013, 11:38 PM
want to fly the big one please
psychlic's Avatar
United States, CA, Covina
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Question
Help with gyor setup

Hello new here and kind of a beginner still to helis and was wondering if somebody could help me understand the difference between HH and rate mode on a dual rate gyro setup? I am using a gy48v Thank you
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 02:59 PM
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Rate mode resists changes in tail angle, and how hard it resists is based on the gain.

Heading Hold tries to hold or return the tail to a specific angle (heading), how hard it tries is based on the gain.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 08:14 PM
want to fly the big one please
psychlic's Avatar
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thanks you very much, that helps, I did see a video yesterday on mickey's rc that was on basic gyro info. I flew today after putting another gyro I had on my 450. It had a gy48v and I put a walkera g011 on it because I liked the way it flew on another heli I had. I had quit a bit of tail wag with the g011 on the same setting as I had the gy48v, but it kept wagging like a hungry dog! I put the gy48v back on and it flew like before, ok, but a bit of drifting.
I think my problem might be that I have the tx in some kind of auto gyro mode because no matter what I set it does the same thing.
I am using a wk-2801 receiver and just barely know how to use it enough to fly something.

Would you or anybody know a good video or link on how to setup a wk-2801 tx? thanks!
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 08:25 PM
want to fly the big one please
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you know I just realized on on the fuel heli talk aren't I? No wonder I can not find my post.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 08:36 PM
want to fly the big one please
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sorry roto rob i'll just go over to the electric heli talks thanks
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 04:11 AM
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This is an area that confuses a lot of new hobbyists. It is not complicated if you understand that the Gyro is responsible for most of the work of keeping your helicopter pointed in the direction you intend.
Two new terms to understand is the Gyro Rate Mode, and Head Holding Mode (HH).
Rate mode will try to compensate for unintended tail movement but does not remember the actual starting position and therefore can not bring the tail back into the last known heading. HH mode on the other hand remembers the last heading and unless it is instructed to get a new heading, it will aggressively attempt to bring the tail back to the saved heading. The HH mode has a signal gain setting that is controlled through channel 5 of the receiver.Nitrotek
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 02:34 PM
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The gain signals, reciever channel depends on the Transmitter brand, model, and how it is setup. Often not on channel 5.
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 01:26 AM
want to fly the big one please
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Originally Posted by Roto Rob View Post
The gain signals, reciever channel depends on the Transmitter brand, model, and how it is setup. Often not on channel 5.
Thanks, good to know. i am using wk2801pro w/rx2801pro, ch 7, detrum gy48v and walkera g011 gyros both not able to adjust but the gy48v does fly ok on whatever setting it is on, the g011 waggs the tail.
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Old Mar 08, 2013, 12:46 AM
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I really think rate mode is a throw back to the old days before HH.
I never need it and never use it.
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Old Mar 08, 2013, 03:43 AM
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I really think rate mode is a throw back to the old days before HH.
I never need it and never use it.
You could not be more wrong....

It is not a throw-back, it is just different. It gives you what is called "tactile feedback" because even if the gyro in ratemode does a lot to steady the tail, bottom line is that you as the pilot control the tail and can get a certain kind of "feel" for what wind, speed, cornering etc etc. is doing to your helicopter.

On the other side of the scale, in HeadingHold mode, you do not control the tail, the gyro does, and basically you only tell the gyro what you want it to do with the helicopters tail.
Tactile feedback, even if people claim they can "feel" it, is just an illusion, simply a technical impossibility.
Differences in "feel" between different helicopters with the same gyro are nothing more than differences in inertia. Differences in "feel" between the same helicopter with different gyro's are just differences in quality.
Your helicopter will respond exactly the same no matter full speed or not, wind or not, crosswind or not.
Like it or not, Heading Hold tends to make all helicopters really feel the same, with marginal differences due weight and inertia.

Saying "I don't need it and never use it" is basically as ignorant as: "hey, we have keyboards, computers and printers now, pens are obsolete, never need one, never use one".

Not saying that you MUST use Rate mode, just saying that some people prefer this feedback, and therefore rate mode is something different, not something obsolete, same like some people having the preference of driving manual vs automatic transmission.

Brgds, Bert
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Old Mar 09, 2013, 12:11 PM
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I set up the tail on any model the same way..rate mode first. get the heli to hover with the tail sitting still first. That is, adjust the tail linkage mechanicaly until the tail won't drift (or the least possible) with the trims set at zero. Gyro doesn't seem to matter. I have a couple gy401's, JR 500T and a couple gy520's.

Then I turn on the heading hold. Don't froget to TURN OFF Revo mixing if your transmitter has it or something like it...adjusting the gain depends on your servo..speed and if it's digital or not..Slower and non-digital servos will use less gain or the gyro will "hunt" as the servo can't keep up with the gyro comands.

I use the best tail servo I can afford..Futaba 9254 is usualy pretty darn good. I wouldn't use it in a 450 size machine, but there are others out there that work well for half the price. I look for 1. Digital, 2..speed. .10 at the slowest for non 3D stuff. all my tail servos are digital and .08 or faster.
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Old Mar 10, 2013, 05:07 AM
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I set up the tail on any model the same way..
+1, that is the only way, no matter whether it's scale or 3D.

Brgds, Bert
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Old Mar 11, 2013, 02:45 AM
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Rate mode means that the gyro dampens the rate of unwanted changes in yaw. Ie, if the helicopter is hovering in a cross wind the tail will move, the gyro will correct a bit and return to center so that the rate of change is controllable by the pilot but after a few of these cycles the helicopter will be pointing into the wind.

Same helicopter with a heading hold gyro, the wind will blow the tail and the gyro will correct, and move a little more to bring it back where it was if need be, it will also hold that correction until something changes (the wind gets stronger the gyro will correct more, or gets weaker it will correct less)

In rate mode in forward flight the tail will weathervane and follow the nose. In heading hold if you turn the tail will stay put till you give a bit of rudder to coordinate the turn.

In rate mode you can't fly backwards, it simply can't cope with it.

Most people with the exception of a few old timers and a smattering of scale guys fly in heading hold mode. The rest of us just learn to coordinate our turns. I fly my scale helis in heading hold. FWIW I flew long before heading hold gyros and as soon as I flew heading hold I switched.

Many modern gyros don't even have rate mode anymore.
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Old Mar 11, 2013, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by charles007 View Post
--------In rate mode you can't fly backwards, it simply can't cope with it.----------
I don't want to comment on the rest, but a rate gyro certainly can fly backwards. While not as easy it certainly is possible. This video has some good examples from Curtis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=KRzEaztpKyk
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Old Mar 11, 2013, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by charles007 View Post
Rate mode means that the gyro dampens the rate of unwanted changes in yaw. Ie, if the helicopter is hovering in a cross wind the tail will move, the gyro will correct a bit and return to center so that the rate of change is controllable by the pilot but after a few of these cycles the helicopter will be pointing into the wind.

Same helicopter with a heading hold gyro, the wind will blow the tail and the gyro will correct, and move a little more to bring it back where it was if need be, it will also hold that correction until something changes (the wind gets stronger the gyro will correct more, or gets weaker it will correct less)

In rate mode in forward flight the tail will weathervane and follow the nose. In heading hold if you turn the tail will stay put till you give a bit of rudder to coordinate the turn.

In rate mode you can't fly backwards, it simply can't cope with it.

Most people with the exception of a few old timers and a smattering of scale guys fly in heading hold mode. The rest of us just learn to coordinate our turns. I fly my scale helis in heading hold. FWIW I flew long before heading hold gyros and as soon as I flew heading hold I switched.

Many modern gyros don't even have rate mode anymore.
No need to explain the difference to me: I am a naval engineer (chief engineer) and familiar with P, PI and PID controllers, of which Rate would be the first, and HH be the second or third (depending on how much effort the manufacturer would have put in it). Heck, I made a functional mechanical HH gyro as a study project somewhere back in the eighties (worked only in a lab-set-up, but it worked nevertheless).

If you think you cannot fly backwards with a rate gyro, then you are exactly there where I expected you to be.... YOU cannot fly backwards with a rate gyro....
Although I do admit, flying backwards is indeed limited when using Rate gyro's.
I myself manage up to approx 25 mph in a straight line without too much difficultes....
And I am not the only one:
CaptainKrik Inverted with a Vintage Schluter Heli-Boy (8 min 51 sec)
which uses even an old mechanical gyro and a wire shaft to the tail instead of a belt or tubular drive shaft....

I do not really care about that though, since I have never seen a full scale helicopter run backwards at high speeds for prolonged times, so I could really care less....

and FWIW, I have been flying from the time the Kavan stabilizer (the one you had to drill a hole in the servo-casing to solder the gyro directly to the servo-potmeter) was the only one availlable, and at that time it was not availlable to me and my limited budget.

To date I still have not yet seen any gyro that did not offer rate mode anymore.
Please name one that doesn't....

Brgds, Bert
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