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Old Feb 17, 2014, 02:32 AM
Aalesund, Norway
Joined Jun 2012
315 Posts
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Rolling Harriers tips and tricks

I have been working on rolling harriers for a while now. I knew it was going to be a challenge but I did not expect it to be this hard to get down..:roll eyes:
I have spent numerous hours on the sim and on my foamie and can do something similar to a RH, but when I see you guys posting vids of RH with a steady nose and tail I can see I have a long way to go.

I have also seen the tutorials that Wamsy and others has posted on youtube.

Can you give any tips on how to progress with this maneuver ?
Like what do you look at, the tail, nose, mid frame. Do you have any timing points like upright, inverted. What is wrong when it tracks left, right, up, down ?

This might be like screaming for help in the desert and I probably just have to keep on walking and put down much more time, and I don't mind, I WILL get this nailed down. It is hard to tell someone how to ride a bicycle. But it is always encouraging to hear success stories and how you got there.
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Old Feb 17, 2014, 02:55 AM
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Start off by doing them wrong A true RH uses the torque to roll the plane and not airflow over the ailerons as in normal flight. OK, start doing them slow, concentrate on quarterly inputs, and concentrate on keeping the nose at an even harrier height. I am not saying hesitant rolls, on the contrary, try and keep your rolls smooth, this will come from good quarterly inputs.
They will be wrong because you are flying the plane on the wing and not on the prop. When you have this down, start doing them properly,,,, this time, concentrate on the throttle, blipping as the plane is in KE. You will need to be at a slightly faster pace than your 'slow practise', but don't go too fast. At first this will mess things up for you, but practise and soon it will start to come together. This way i learnt in a couple a months flying once a week (no sim).
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Old Feb 17, 2014, 03:25 AM
Aalesund, Norway
Joined Jun 2012
315 Posts
Aha..blipping on KE, that makes sense. The movement on the left stick should be like a V pattern then ?
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Old Feb 17, 2014, 09:33 AM
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IMO, concentrate on what the plane should do, and not what your thumbs should do. This may sound wrong, butttt, if you think about controlling the plane, you naturally will start thumbing correctly. This is why i suggest learning slow high alpha rolls first, to get your thumbs working correctly to what the plane needs.
If you concept what should be happening to your sticks (as a learning tool) you will more than likely stumble your learning as IMO putting a plane in control with throttle is 70% of flying skill. The actual stick moves should be a 'result' and not a learning aid IMO.
Dwayne
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Old Mar 11, 2014, 12:31 AM
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Check out VoroRc 3d school on youtube. he has lots of great 3d videos
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Old Mar 11, 2014, 01:36 AM
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- the plane isn't rolling due to torque. if you have lost aileron authority in rolling harrier, you may wish to upgrade your airframe. all modern 3D planes can roll which ever direction they wish in a rolling harrier, stop for point rolls, etc... all pretty much means torque has nothing to do with it.

- pick a direction and go. no direction is better than the other, other than rolling to the left will help planes with marginal aileron authority.

- blipping the throttle is 100% not important when you learn and is mostly a distraction. have enough throttle to get you through a few rolls. over time, the better you get at it, maintaining height will demand some control over your throttle so you can add more and back off... but even still pulsing on each KE position is not important and is a step of refinement that can come at the very end if at all. Yes, the best of the best are blipping the throttle as they need it, but again, it's a refinement step.

- the advice for rolling during a regular harrier is a good one. just roll every now and then making sure you get the rudder input in there as you pass through KE. you can start in harrier, then roll on your back and make sure to use rudder.... then wait and settle down and then roll the rest. This is cool practice for a number of reasons, but mostly because itself looks pretty cool... and over time you can get them closer together and more contiguous.


...once you've started doing them, very little will actually help except practice. you can only get them with continual practice. For many, it's 12-18 months of regular practice in order to get solid control of them including able to turn while rolling.
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Old Mar 11, 2014, 04:42 AM
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Yes, the best of the best are blipping the throttle as they need it, but again, it's a refinement step.
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Old Mar 11, 2014, 09:28 AM
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Moody, AL
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Originally Posted by theKM View Post
...once you've started doing them, very little will actually help except practice. you can only get them with continual practice. For many, it's 12-18 months of regular practice in order to get solid control of them including able to turn while rolling.

+1. It took me about 2 years of steady practice to get them down to the point where I can change directions and maintain a constant altitude just rolling to the left. I still don't have rolling to the right or rolling loops down pat. Even if you know what inputs you need to use it's still a "muscle memory" type thing that only comes with a lot of practice and repetition. Just keep after it and you'll get it.

-Dustin
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Old Mar 11, 2014, 09:31 AM
R.I.P. my 70" FB Slick
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Moody, AL
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I also don't blip the throttle and feel that most of the time my rolls are pretty axial. So, I agree with KM that you can get good looking harrier rolls without blipping the throttle. All my planes are electric though. I've heard that some of the blipping is to keep gasoline engines from loading up. But, I realize that the better/pro pilots are able to blip the throttle to maximize airflow when they need it.

-Dustin
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Old Mar 11, 2014, 07:16 PM
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Blipping the throttle helps with altitude, and airflow over the control surfaces for increased roll rate, among other things. But, it's all about PRACTICE!!!!
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Old Mar 12, 2014, 10:23 AM
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Another thing I tried was rolling with rudder only and elevator only. This won't get nice axial rolls but it forces you to get your timing right with each control surface and you have to over control with each input to keep the nose up.

When you put the rudder and elevator inputs together, then you can back of on the amount of input on each. Just one of the many things I've tried to accomplish this maneuver and I'm still working on it.

Entering the RH from a weeble wobble from altitude has also been a fun way to start the maneuver and it looks cool.

I'm a long way from any kind of expert. Just thought I'd try to help with some things I've pick up.
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Old Mar 12, 2014, 11:01 AM
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for learning the maneuver, trying to blip the throttle is wasted energy and will just lengthen your learning curve...
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Old Mar 12, 2014, 11:40 AM
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Yeah, throttle should be added as needed, but it's not a key to learning the maneuver. Rolling to the left was always easier for me because you can use the throttle and torque to help speed up the roll rate a little if needed. Inversely, it can slow the rate down slightly when rolling to the right.

I learned similar to how Rodsmith123 is describing. Practice using only elevator or only rudder(whichever is more comfortable) and don't use too fast of a roll rate. Focus on what the plane is doing rather than what your thumbs are doing and take baby steps. I started out using elevator only. Once I got control of going straight vs turning I started adding rudder. Once I got the hang of that, I started working on turning both directions. After that it was changing elevation & so on. You just gotta build it up with layers of knowledge/muscle memory and it will start to click, but try to focus on improving one thing at a time and keep at it until you've mastered it. If for some reason you're stuck and you aren't making progress with something, take a break from the maneuver for a while and come back to it later. Sometimes we teach ourselves bad habits and taking a break can help prevent them becoming perpetual.
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Old Mar 12, 2014, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theKM View Post
for learning the maneuver, trying to blip the throttle is wasted energy and will just lengthen your learning curve...
+1. you also do not constantly blip the throttle when doing RH anyhow. At least on electrics which is all I fly. i just give it more throttle when I want to climb and less when I want to fall.
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Old Mar 13, 2014, 03:01 AM
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A tip for people wanting to learn to steer while in a rolling harrier, i.e. rolling circles or just rolling turnarounds. Start trying to do them in a small flying area, this will force you to be a little passive with steering.
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