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Old Nov 13, 2014, 05:32 AM
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Terry Rigden's Avatar
UK, Bedworth
Joined Apr 2004
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Running in new lipo batteries

Sorry to ask a basic question, I did search but couldn't find anything.

Is it advisable to run in new packs? If so how.

Thanks Terry
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 06:36 AM
Tim Lampe; Hobbico R&D
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Champaign, IL
Joined Dec 2009
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Hi Terry.

I don't claim to be an expert on this, but I think you'll get mixed answers. My answer is from information gleaned from trusted sources here on Groups:

Some battery manufacturers recommend breaking-in batteries in their instructions, some make no mention of it.

Me, I run-in my packs that I value highly and demand to perform at their best (the packs I use for pylon racing). I haven't collected data on whether or not this actually makes the packs better, but I'm taking a conservative approach with these packs.

If someone posts on here that break-in is a waist of time, I'll have no data to refute that statement, but still, I like to treat my best packs conservatively.

Sport packs that are less expensive and I just sport fly, I don't worry about it.

To break-in my packs I run them on a test stand. I have with a Watt-meter connected in-line so I can see the Amp draw. I'll take them down to 50% capacity the first two or three runs at a current of about 5C (for my 1800mAh packs then I'll run them at about 10 Amps (1.8Ah x 5C = 9A = approximately 10A).

Then I'll run them a couple more times at about 10C/15C, then be done.

Whatever the figures, for break-in it's just nice to run them at a low current to about half capacity.

Others who break-in packs will simply fly the plane gently the first couple of flights avoiding extended periods of full-throttle.

Tim
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 06:55 AM
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Florida
Joined Aug 2004
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If I'm wrong here, I am sure someone will correct me. I do think that the current draw on a typical motor is always the same value; i.e. always at max, just switched on/off with different periods of the off versus on times. Meaning that at full throttle, you are drawing maximum current most or all of the time; at lower throttle positions you are drawing maximum current in bursts, less on than off time the lower the throttle setting. If so, the only thing that doing a breakin o n your batteries is that you will not be raising the internal temperature of the battery as fast as if running at full blast. I can not see how breakin has any effect on how long your battery lasts as long as you never reach excessive battery temperatures.
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 07:27 AM
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Rugby, UK
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Rigden View Post
Sorry to ask a basic question, I did search but couldn't find anything.

Is it advisable to run in new packs? If so how.

Thanks Terry
Terry,

I think you should run them at low current initially as there is adefinitely a change over the first few cycles.
The IR drops initially by up to about 25%; sometimes during the fiirst cycle and sometimes over the first 3 or 4 cycles. If nothing else this must mean that the pack will run hotter than normal during the first cycles which can't be good news.

I posted this on another thread a few days back:-
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2126

Rodney, although the motor takes current in pulses, this is converted to a steady DC current ( with some residual ripple on it ) by the ESC so that at lower throttle levels the lipo sees the lower DC average current.

Wayne
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 07:45 AM
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Terry Rigden's Avatar
UK, Bedworth
Joined Apr 2004
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Thanks guys that is most helpful.
I'll will do as you suggest

Thanks

Terry
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 11:40 AM
Registered User
Pearland, Texas
Joined Feb 2000
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Hi Terry,

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this message is intended for Wayne Giles....
you said that initial lipo IR actually goes down after a few low demand cycles...did i read that right?? The reason I ask, is that recently I acquired some nano-tech's from HK that were awful....but that was on the first flight pulling around 15C on a 35-70C "rated" pack. Should I continue to use these for a few more cycles in the hopes that they will "come to life"??

Thanks,
Jim
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 02:27 PM
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United States, WA, Woodinville
Joined May 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
If I'm wrong here, I am sure someone will correct me. I do think that the current draw on a typical motor is always the same value; i.e. always at max, just switched on/off with different periods of the off versus on times. Meaning that at full throttle, you are drawing maximum current most or all of the time; at lower throttle positions you are drawing maximum current in bursts, less on than off time the lower the throttle setting. If so, the only thing that doing a breakin o n your batteries is that you will not be raising the internal temperature of the battery as fast as if running at full blast. I can not see how breakin has any effect on how long your battery lasts as long as you never reach excessive battery temperatures.

There is some truth to this, but in reality the inductance of the motor windings means that the current through them does not rise instantly to the maximum value. Also the capacitors across the input of the ESC serve as a reservoir to absorb these peaks so the draw from the battery should be something resembling smooth and will vary with throttle/load.
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 02:54 PM
Registered User
Rugby, UK
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anitelite View Post
Hi Terry,

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this message is intended for Wayne Giles....
you said that initial lipo IR actually goes down after a few low demand cycles...did i read that right?? The reason I ask, is that recently I acquired some nano-tech's from HK that were awful....but that was on the first flight pulling around 15C on a 35-70C "rated" pack. Should I continue to use these for a few more cycles in the hopes that they will "come to life"??

Thanks,
Jim
Jim,

Does your charger read the IR of the lipos when charging? If so what are the readings?

When I have carried out controlled testing of lipo packs, I always measure the IR before testing and then start with some CC discharges at 2C, 5C and 10C before I do the real testing at higher rates. I measure the IR after each discharge and it is noticeable that the IR always drops after the first few cycles and then stabilises.

I have to say that the testing I did on Nanotechs was most disappointing but that was in the early days with standard nanotechs. A 25C was only capable of 17C and a '45C' was barely 25C.

I think I would measure the Cell IR values and just have one or two more flights and remeasure the IRs . If they are high and not falling, try for replacements.

I assume that it was not a temperature problem??? Was the ambient reasonable?

Wayne
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 04:34 PM
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Pearland, Texas
Joined Feb 2000
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break - in question

Hi Wayne,

No, my charger won't read IR I don't think....but I'll check tonight.

I got a 3S 2650 battery and charged it fully at 1C. Then ran it on a motor that pulls at most 30A. Run time was around 3 minutes at about 60% throttle. Outside temps were 65 F. I noticed almost immediately that whereas my older 20C batts would fly the plane easily at 40-50% throttle, the new pack required 55-60 % for the same performance. I replaced the pack in the field, and when home, discharged the 2650 to 9 volts and put a storage charge back on it. I have a standard lipo pack that I bought from ValueHobby that's 2600 and it flew the plane easily at 30-40 % on the very first pop out of the wrapper. So that's why I asked the question. I'll fiddle with the nano a while longer, but it looks like a dud to me.
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 08:02 PM
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umm, guys, shouldn't you check IR when pack is fully charged?
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 09:13 PM
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Georgia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pitcher View Post
umm, guys, shouldn't you check IR when pack is fully charged?
I'd argue that the IR during use is more of interest. That would seem to be at something less than full charge. Perhaps some cell voltage with and without load?
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 09:22 PM
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So. Cal.
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State of charge has negligible effect on the internal resistance of a lipoly cell. However, temperature has a dramatic effect. As such, always ensure that temperature is stringently controlled at a consistent temperature if one desires to use the data for comparative purposes.

I've found that it's simplest to test at 'storage' voltage as this is where my packs are ~99% of the time.
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Old Nov 13, 2014, 10:20 PM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...61&postcount=1
Snip

Quote:
Break-in:

I start with 1C charges and moderate max. loads.I try and stay under 60% of claimed max. cont. C rating and keep flight times short to insure not exceeding 80% capacity used.
Example A 20C 2200 is rated for 44 amps. cont . but I would stay under 26A (12C) average. Short burst to 35-40 amp. are fine but the practice of charging a new LiPoly and then seeing how much power it has does a new LiPoly no good.

Added 5-4-12: As noted above I charage at multi C rates routinely however:

I work up to this on a gradual basis.First charge is at 1C perhaps even two at 1C depending on the LiPoly and charger used. Observe the cell's balance and do not charge faster if they are drifting about much.
Next up is 2 or 3 2C charges then a 2 or 3 C rate ones. Once the LiPoly has 10 to 15 charges I have worked up to 5C (for so rated LiPolys) and from then on I charge based on how fast(soon) I will need it charged again.

Post here with fairly detailed charge and discharge cycles working up to 5C charge rate.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=10


I also check IR with cells at storage (3.85V) room Temp. 72-76F and I charge at low rate or 1/2C as to prevent heating during the IR check.
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Old Nov 14, 2014, 03:54 AM
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UK, Bedworth
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I followed that link above and just got the general index page, any chance of reposting a link to the data?

Thanks

Terry
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Old Nov 14, 2014, 08:23 AM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...7#post16421261

I have no idea why links I post work for me but often not for others, this seems to be tied to recent upgrade(?) to IE 11 perhaps posting alternate using Chrome.
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