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Old Jan 13, 2013, 01:36 AM
Whoops was it always in 2 bits
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United Kingdom, England, Rotherham
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This MSH Brain, iKon, X-BAR sounds very interesting and although I've read the thread from the top very little is said about using the self leveling feature as a training aid.

There are some posts nearer the beginning that state it is only for bail out, and then someone says you may be able to program it to fly level. And I agree that this is more like hovering around than flying around.

What I'm after is a KDS Flymentor FBL controller, in other words if the cyclic is central steadily bring me back level. I have mine set so I hardly know its there but if I have a dumb thumbs or indeed just loose orientation I can just center the stick and know it will continue level in the same direction of travel.

Could I get one of these to do the same?
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Old Jan 13, 2013, 02:36 AM
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United States, NY, Coram
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Originally Posted by bionicbone View Post
This MSH Brain, iKon, X-BAR sounds very interesting and although I've read the thread from the top very little is said about using the self leveling feature as a training aid.

There are some posts nearer the beginning that state it is only for bail out, and then someone says you may be able to program it to fly level. And I agree that this is more like hovering around than flying around.

What I'm after is a KDS Flymentor FBL controller, in other words if the cyclic is central steadily bring me back level. I have mine set so I hardly know its there but if I have a dumb thumbs or indeed just loose orientation I can just center the stick and know it will continue level in the same direction of travel.

Could I get one of these to do the same?
From what I have experienced, yes. The thing is though you will need some experience or have someone with experience set it up. I do not think that someone that is new to the hobby would be able to set it up on their own. The other thing is I do not feel it would be a good training aid to learn how to fly. I think using the self leveling feature will start bad habits when it comes to learning how to fly out of trouble. I am a fan of learning how to fly with a flybar heli and the sim. Not using the self leveling feature as a training aid. I just feel bad thing could happen later on down the road.
BUT, to answer your question, I do not see why not. I think yes, the self level feature could be set up to be used as a training aid when it comes to learning how to fly rc helis.

Jeff
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Old Jan 13, 2013, 02:52 AM
Whoops was it always in 2 bits
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United Kingdom, England, Rotherham
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Originally Posted by gs550t1981 View Post
From what I have experienced, yes. The thing is though you will need some experience or have someone with experience set it up. I do not think that someone that is new to the hobby would be able to set it up on their own. The other thing is I do not feel it would be a good training aid to learn how to fly. I think using the self leveling feature will start bad habits when it comes to learning how to fly out of trouble. I am a fan of learning how to fly with a flybar heli and the sim. Not using the self leveling feature as a training aid. I just feel bad thing could happen later on down the road.
BUT, to answer your question, I do not see why not. I think yes, the self level feature could be set up to be used as a training aid when it comes to learning how to fly rc helis.

Jeff
Jeff, thanks for this.

Let me say that you are absolutely correct about the bad habits, ask me how i know LOL. I've been flying with the FM flymentor in the background for so long I feel uneasy when I flick the switch to off. However, I am where I am and enjoy the confidence that a sluggishly tuned self leveling aid gives me, although I'll not knock myself too much as frankly its very very sluggish now, but shhhh I dont want to think about it LOL.

I think I'll have a go with one of these, currently I'm running a KDS Flymentor into a ZYX FBL with all the wires going in circles around the frame and settings, don't mention the settings!!

Thanks Again
Kev
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Old Jan 13, 2013, 03:33 PM
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United States, WA, Issaquah
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Originally Posted by bionicbone View Post
I think I'll have a go with one of these, currently I'm running a KDS Flymentor into a ZYX FBL with all the wires going in circles around the frame and settings, don't mention the settings!!

That's gotta be quite a Frankenstein setup. First time I've heard of such thing...
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Old Jan 13, 2013, 03:53 PM
Whoops was it always in 2 bits
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Originally Posted by Dr.M View Post

That's gotta be quite a Frankenstein setup. First time I've heard of such thing...
Lol, if you think about it the KDS flymentor does nothing unless the cyclic stick is centred when it feeds inputs to the ZYX to level the heli. It works well :-) but looks crazy :-)
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Old Jan 13, 2013, 10:54 PM
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Hey Dr. M,
Maybe you can help me with this. I am flying a trex 550 with 550mm blades, Align ds655 tail servo, Ikon fbl and spektrum sats. My tail won't stop wagging. Played with the transmitter gains, switched ball positions on the tail servo, Tail slider is smooth as smooth can be, all that I can think is left is something in the Ikon software but I do not know where to start. I can get it up in a hover and as long as I do not give it any collective or rudder the tail is tame. Once I bounce the collective or simply tap the rudder, she starts bouncing the tail side to side. I probably won't get back out until next weekend but I want to know what I should be looking at next time out. If you want to know where my tail settings on the Ikon software are at right now let me know and when I get home from work tomorrow I'll post them. Thanks. And anyone else who might have some input it is greatly appreciated. Thanks..

Jeff
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 06:07 PM
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I'll be maidening my 700DFC with the iKon in the next few days. I have my fingers crossed that I wont have any tail issues, using the Align BL 750H tail servo at 6.8 volts.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 07:31 PM
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I'll be maidening my 700DFC with the iKon in the next few days. I have my fingers crossed that I wont have any tail issues, using the Align BL 750H tail servo at 6.8 volts.
Good luck with that. Why are you wondering about the tail? You could always use a step down regulator. Or do you want the higher voltage because it works better?
I'll be trying mine in a coup[le days.
Hey, how long are you going to wait to try tha SL from inverted?
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 08:07 PM
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Thanks. Yes, it's a HV servo, so the higher voltage will make it go faster.

Most of the reports of problems with this gyro seem to be related to the tail. Dr.M fixed his with a high quality tail servo, but I still read of others with on going problems with the tail.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by barnstorm100 View Post
...I'll be trying mine in a coup[le days.
Hey, how long are you going to wait to try tha SL from inverted?
Good luck with yours, also. I'll be trying SL as soon as I have it tuned and can get to a high altitude.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gs550t1981 View Post
Hey Dr. M,
Maybe you can help me with this. I am flying a trex 550 with 550mm blades, Align ds655 tail servo, Ikon fbl and spektrum sats. My tail won't stop wagging. Played with the transmitter gains, switched ball positions on the tail servo, Tail slider is smooth as smooth can be, all that I can think is left is something in the Ikon software but I do not know where to start. I can get it up in a hover and as long as I do not give it any collective or rudder the tail is tame. Once I bounce the collective or simply tap the rudder, she starts bouncing the tail side to side. I probably won't get back out until next weekend but I want to know what I should be looking at next time out. If you want to know where my tail settings on the Ikon software are at right now let me know and when I get home from work tomorrow I'll post them. Thanks. And anyone else who might have some input it is greatly appreciated. Thanks..

Jeff
Yeah, please post your tail settings. Also, What tail blades and HS you're running.

And if you could describe or video the wag, that would also be helpful. Is it a fast and aggressive wag (>2Hz), or a slow and lazy wobble (1-2Hz)?
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 09:09 PM
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Good luck with the maiden of that 700, BF!
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.M View Post
Good luck with the maiden of that 700, BF!
Thanks. I don't think I've been this nervous about a maiden, since my maiden flight of the 550E. The 550E was my first FBL heli with an Align 3G, and lots of reports of tip overs on lift off, at that time.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:59 PM
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Maiden successful!!! I managed to fire it up this morning in my front section before going to work. Just hovering, pitch pumps and piros.

I lifted off at 1750 RPM and it was smooth and much quieter than I expected. I had the tail gain very low at 28, so the stops were very soft. There was no wag at all.

I upped the head speed to 1950, which felt more to my liking, and the tail gain to 35. The tail stop CCW was instant (no bounce) and the CW was still soft, so I suspect some tail asymmetry is required (I just need to figure out which way to go + or -). It also needs some pitch precompensation or a higher gain (once the asymmetry is set correctly), as the tail kicked out slightly on near full collective (12.5 degrees).

The cyclic felt great using the default 700 settings. I had the first flight mode in the iKon set to Sport, with the pitch expo removed in the advanced section. I need more agility than this mode offers and the piro speed was far to slow for me in this mode, but the heli stayed still during the slow full piro.

I switched to flight mode 2 which is set to 3D. The cyclic felt better but the piro speed is still too slow. Looks like I'll be trying hardcore 3D next, and making sure the tail speed is at least 500.

So my plan is to have flight mode 1 with 3D cyclic settings and a 500 tail speed. Flight mode 2 will be hardcore 3D setting, and flight mode 3 will be Self Level with Sport settings and a 500 tail speed.

1750 RPM seems good for take off and landing, and I will have 1950 and 2150 on idelup 1 and 2.

Unfortunately it seems the 700E DFC still has a tail issue. After the first hard pitch up down at 1950, I got a tail hum sound, which is not good. It was this hum/resonance that was breaking the old 5mm tail shaft (now it's 6mm). So I have some work to do on the tail before a proper flight. One person has reported fixing this by replacing the tail blade holder thrust bearings.

6 minutes of throttle hold released (motor running) and the 4500mah 50C Lipos required 30ma to get them back to storage.

First impressions of the iKon are very good, but I had no room for circuits, so I can't really tell if the cyclic setup is correct. It was super stable, piroed on the spot and had a nice feel to the cyclic and collective. Putting it on the ground softly was also very easy, and I didn't find myself fighting the collective close to the ground. You could just setup a slow rate of decent and it stayed constant until it touched the ground.

Also a thumbs up on the new Turnigy 10A HV BEC. Nice looking, high quality and seems to perform well. It's smaller in size than I expected, but it would still limit practical use to 500 size on up (a bit like the Castle BEC Pro). I'm currently using it at 6.8 volts. It has a green led to show it's running and a red flashing led to show low voltage (adjustable) and over current.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:58 PM
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Very nice, BF. Yeah watch out for that exploding tail and don't hover with the tail pointed straight at you . I agree that the default piro rates are a bit low, I've got mine at 480 and may go up to 500 when I do some more tuning.

Did you set up the tail in rate mode? I found it helps with tuning symmetric behavior on piro stops.
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