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Old Jun 15, 2009, 11:03 AM
Blackhawk
United States, TX, Fort Worth
Joined Jan 2007
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Parkzone Corsiar or Trojan with A123 Battery

I would like to know if anyone flying the Parkzone Corsair or Trojan with A123 battery.
Since there is voltage different between Li-po and A123 battery should I go with the 3s or 4s A123 battery?
The planes will be under power with 3s A123 due to low voltage so a faster motor will be needed. If I go with the 4s, do I need to upgrade the stock ESC?
Will be any problem with weight and balancing the planes. Thanks!
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 01:15 PM
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I would love to see this... It would be awesome to have a charging port built right into the side of the plane...land long enough for a quick-charge and send her back up!!

As for voltage.... I do know that the stock motor/esc can handle 14.8v on the 2-blade...because I fly mine on 4s all the time...and the plane flies fine with a bit more weight so I'm sure you could make it work. Does that help at all?

I don't know the safe LVC for A123 packs...so I don't even know if the stock ESC would work...I'm sure someone can answer this.
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 01:52 PM
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Commerce Township, MI
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I'm only using a 3S pack so that I can Zip charge.

http://homepage.mac.com/kmyersefo/t28/parkzonet28.htm

I'm sure a 4S "A123" can be made to fit. The little extra weight should not affect the flyability of this plane at all.
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 01:55 PM
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Ken,

I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere...but how long does the zip charge take?

Why can you zip-charge a 3s pack but not a 4s?

How many mah is your 3s pack rated for?

Do A123s deteriorate with cycles like Lipos or do they last any longer?

Thanks... sorry for the hijack, kz4q66
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 02:13 PM
Blackhawk
United States, TX, Fort Worth
Joined Jan 2007
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no problem Smokescreen38. The more questions we ask the more we will know about the A123 battery. From what I know A123 battery got about 4 to 5 times more cycles than Lipo
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 04:03 PM
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Commerce Township, MI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokescreen38
Ken,

I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere...but how long does the zip charge take?
Of course it depends on how much has be "taken out" of the pack, but usually about 8 minutes to 12 minutes.

Here is my article on Zip Charging.
http://homepage.mac.com/kmyersefo/zi.../zipcharge.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokescreen38
Why can you zip-charge a 3s pack but not a 4s?
A charged Deep Cycle Marine/RV battery is 12.x volts (the x stands for any digit depending on when you measure it). A "full" 3S "A123" pack is at terminal voltage at about 11 volts, so there is still a difference in potential between the source and pack being charged. Even if you forget to watch the voltage the "A123" cells can only go to about 4 volts each. Honestly, and I know folks will disagree, but they don't seem to mind much. Been there, done that more than I'd like to admit.
I'm in the third year on all of my packs but one that was a special configuration for my Fusion 380.
The termination voltage for a 4S pack is about 15.4 volts. Using a 12 volt source, you can't get there.

[QUOTE=Smokescreen38]How many mah is your 3s pack rated for?[QUOTE]

There are only two real "A123" cells that we use. The 1100mAh cells, which are not usually Zip Charged because they can't take the current of the larger ones. The ones I use are the 2300mAh cells. If the pack is really empty the amp draw when I connect is about 17 to 18 amps, then it will taper down to about 3 to 4 amps when the voltage reaches about 11.1v on my AF Whattmeter. That's about an 11 amp average. A pack with less taken out my start at 14 to 15 amps and goes to the same 3 to 4 amps in a bit less time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokescreen38
Do A123s deteriorate with cycles like Lipos or do they last any longer?

Thanks... sorry for the hijack, kz4q66
All cells deteriorate from the day that they are manufactured whether they are used or not. I know that's really not what you are asking.
Everydayflyer (aka Charles) has done a lot of testing on them, A LOT! His don't appear to be deteriorating anywhere as near as quickly as Li-Poly, and mine with a lot less use, maybe, if I'm lucky 20 flights on any given pack a month, are holding up just fine for three seasons now.

You can find a lot more "A123" info in this article:
http://homepage.mac.com/kmyersefo/M1...outrunners.htm
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 05:35 PM
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Ken is the A123 expert, and his PZ T-28 flies very well on a 3S A123. Unless you were doing a side-by-side comparison, I don't think you would notice much of a difference relative to flying it on stock PZ 1800 or 2200 mAh lipos.

The ability to zip charge more than makes up for the slightly lower voltage of A123s. The flight time to charge time is almost 1:1. (With lipos, it is around 1:10.) My $200 computer charger can only put out a max of 5 amps. When I zip charge my 3S A123, it starts out at 25 amps!

dabesq
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 05:56 PM
Blackhawk
United States, TX, Fort Worth
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Ken

Do you run your PZ T-28 with stock motor, stock ESC and an 3s A123?
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 06:09 PM
Blackhawk
United States, TX, Fort Worth
Joined Jan 2007
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Sorry Ken. I found the answers when I had a chance to read your article
http://homepage.mac.com/kmyersefo/t28/parkzonet28.htm
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 10:12 AM
Checking CG is for NERDS!
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[QUOTE=Ken Myers]Of course it depends on how much has be "taken out" of the pack, but usually about 8 minutes to 12 minutes.

Here is my article on Zip Charging.
http://homepage.mac.com/kmyersefo/zi.../zipcharge.htm



A charged Deep Cycle Marine/RV battery is 12.x volts (the x stands for any digit depending on when you measure it). A "full" 3S "A123" pack is at terminal voltage at about 11 volts, so there is still a difference in potential between the source and pack being charged. Even if you forget to watch the voltage the "A123" cells can only go to about 4 volts each. Honestly, and I know folks will disagree, but they don't seem to mind much. Been there, done that more than I'd like to admit.
I'm in the third year on all of my packs but one that was a special configuration for my Fusion 380.
The termination voltage for a 4S pack is about 15.4 volts. Using a 12 volt source, you can't get there.

[QUOTE=Smokescreen38]How many mah is your 3s pack rated for?
Quote:

There are only two real "A123" cells that we use. The 1100mAh cells, which are not usually Zip Charged because they can't take the current of the larger ones. The ones I use are the 2300mAh cells. If the pack is really empty the amp draw when I connect is about 17 to 18 amps, then it will taper down to about 3 to 4 amps when the voltage reaches about 11.1v on my AF Whattmeter. That's about an 11 amp average. A pack with less taken out my start at 14 to 15 amps and goes to the same 3 to 4 amps in a bit less time.



All cells deteriorate from the day that they are manufactured whether they are used or not. I know that's really not what you are asking.
Everydayflyer (aka Charles) has done a lot of testing on them, A LOT! His don't appear to be deteriorating anywhere as near as quickly as Li-Poly, and mine with a lot less use, maybe, if I'm lucky 20 flights on any given pack a month, are holding up just fine for three seasons now.

You can find a lot more "A123" info in this article:
http://homepage.mac.com/kmyersefo/M1...outrunners.htm
Brilliant

Thanks so much for the info, Ken!!
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 10:40 AM
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Joined May 2009
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This is a great thread. should get the ball rolling for parkzone/horizonhobby/the microsofts of this industry to finally adopt a123 en masse and do away with dangerous and less technologically advanced lithium polymer batteries!!!

lipos are money makers because they are dirt cheap to make, but are sold at much higher prices. don't know what its gonna take to change the status quo but i'd say interest like this thread (and seeing more a123s in your planes at the field) is a start!
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 10:45 AM
Blackhawk
United States, TX, Fort Worth
Joined Jan 2007
304 Posts
How long will it take to charge an 3s A123 battery with a 12v 10A power supply?
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 04:55 PM
Blackhawk
United States, TX, Fort Worth
Joined Jan 2007
304 Posts
I found this info at runryder new groups:
" I have a Hyperion dual charger that can charge two A123 3S packs @ 10A each. Total charge time @ 10A is between 12-15 minutes for almost completely drained packs."
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