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Old Sep 10, 2013, 01:04 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Minnesota, USA
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Doug - yes - maximum beam was set to replicate the Mini 40 Class dimensions. I think you and Andy (rust) went a little crazy with the beam on the MultiONE which was based on the dimension ratio of your F3 tri with foils. Thus the MultiONE was only 1 meter in length, but could have a beam of up to 48". I think (????) the 48 inches was to try and keep carbon tubes (cross-beams) within a reasonable cost ..... both for the tube and for shipping.

I saw/sailed your foiler (Chris Traiser) and while impressed with the performance "UP ON" foils, I also was subject to weed issues and the resulting drag when sailing in light wind. Not to open a bucket of worms - I have yet to see an r/c foiler going to windward on an angle equal or closer to the wind than a traditional board multihull. I will admit to trying to buy Rich Matt's boat after his untimely passing, but was unable to locate who owns it. My intent was for a boat to sail for "fun" leaving a boat with traditional boards/keel for competition.

Depending on current costs, I would think there is more of a market now than 10-13 years ago, especially with the current AC efforts and you might have renewed interest in the F3 (or a variant of similar design) but with a price tag probably similar or less than the early 2000 model.

As for a one design, I can't see too much interest, given the boats being built are often "out-of-scale" to existing rules (Tippecanoe 50 inch tri as a current example) and those willing to put in the time in development, building, experimenting, rebuilding, etc. in a minority. Keep in mind the Volans (Thunder Tiger) tri has been out for nearly 2 years (I think) it hasn't seen much of a following within organized sail racing. You could absolutely "float" (pun intended) as set of dimensions, rules, etc. out into the public on a forum, and then judge the interest of builders both here in the US and across the globe. From what I see/have seen, there continues to be a decrease in builders, and more new sailors are drawn to RTS/RTR plastic boats yet even they don't seem to grow as a class within AMYA compared to numbers sold and interest generated on the forums.

Would hate to see a similar case for yet another new model size that stirs interest, but never fully matures to a size of memberships to warrant others to spend money and time (or just money) to have one. I will reiterate that I would again put forth effort for the F48 (with foils if so built) but I simply don't have time to try to usher another make/model/size through the "wannabe" builders that suck up time without any output.

Cheers, Dick
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 01:44 PM
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Please, please, please, don't let this forum go down the Doug Lord rabbit hole. Dick L, of all people, I think you know where that always leads.
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 02:33 PM
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I've been thinking if there was a co-ordinated effort with people like yourself, maybe Magnus and other AC and LAC guys world wide to find a way to produce the expensive components for a foiler on a one-design basis, maybe including a base kit and design, that interest could be built due to the availability of a workable system that still allowed for some homebuilding(or not).
I'm not at all sure theres enough interest in a boat that would be bound to be on the expensive side of kits.
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JIM CALDWELLA View Post
For R/C models what is wrong with F48 rules??
==========
Jim, the only problem with the F48 rules comes about if you want to build a foiler that uses Bradfields or Kettermans altitude control system. They use dual ,independent altitude sensors that not only provide vertical lift, but because they are independent they provide all the righting moment for the boat up to the structural limits of the boat. For these to work correctly they need to be used on an oversquare platform which has the effect of reducing the load(due to RM) on the foils which reduces drag a lot. If one was to use either system on a cat or other boat that was significantly narrower , the mainfoils would likely be overloaded when they try to keep the boat upright.
And the F48 rules limit beam to square......
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 05:21 PM
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If the use of foils is outside F48 rules then it effectively becomes another class, just using F48 knowledge as a basis. If its wanted, why not? Just thinking out loud.
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 06:38 PM
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Minnesota, USA
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Originally Posted by Tom Corbett View Post
Please, please, please, don't let this forum go down the Doug Lord rabbit hole. Dick L, of all people, I think you know where that always leads.
I well understand what you are saying. As I thought I said - but will clarify..... I'm willing to support the F48 Class if there are enough owner/builders to make the effort worthwhile. This would be similar to my initial support and promotion of the RG65 Class here in the US, along with "Roadtoad" (Sven) and Earl Boebert. I would judge it to be worthwhile if a minimum of 12 boats are in construction over the next year and builders are willing to join AMYA in order to have an official class within the next 3 years.

As I stated to Doug - I would not be interested in supporting a one design class for foiling multihulls. Others more interested in the science/technology are welcome to give it a go. Doug is aware of our efforts with the F48 and surely can pass on the needed steps to a future one-design (or open) foiling multihull class chairman/secretary if the interest develops.

@ Tom:
Yes, I was there in the past when things led down the tube with Doug and also with another European builder wanting to sell kits here in the US. I wound up backing out of that effort - but also have (and recall) some mighty nasty emails from old-timer AMYA members which didn't help the efforts much. Given the time that has past, and events that have transpired back then with all sorts of new class proposals, "flying/jumping" boats, and inabilities to furnish complete or kit boats off the shelf, I'm not sure we would head that way again. I may be wrong, but I will sit this one out given my above response.

Cheers, Dick
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mfr02 View Post
If the use of foils is outside F48 rules then it effectively becomes another class, just using F48 knowledge as a basis. If its wanted, why not? Just thinking out loud.
Foils are not outside the F48 rules - it is just that they work better on a platform the isn't "square" (48" x 48") I am aware of several UK boats using foils successfully under the current Mini40 Class rules. It "can be done" - but seems to be much easier if the beam is significantly wider than the length. See my reference to the MultiONE rules which were designed for foil use.

Dick
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mfr02 View Post
If the use of foils is outside F48 rules then it effectively becomes another class, just using F48 knowledge as a basis. If its wanted, why not? Just thinking out loud.
=============
The only problem with the F48 rules and foils is with the type of foil system one might choose as explained above in post 19. There are foil systems and combinations of foil systems and movable ballast that would work just fine and be very fast.
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Old Sep 11, 2013, 06:49 AM
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My rough calculations show I can develop 20# of positive or negative lift with a naca 0010 foil at each hull on my Cat at 48" x 48" so I am currently building the foil molds to be followed by the hull plug week after next.
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Old Sep 11, 2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JIM CALDWELLA View Post
My rough calculations show I can develop 20# of positive or negative lift with a naca 0010 foil at each hull on my Cat at 48" x 48" so I am currently building the foil molds to be followed by the hull plug week after next.
========================
Jim, the only problem with using foils for RM on a square or less than square boat is the "cost" of developing that RM. Off yer Rocker, the Canadian C Class that used a full out Bradfield system on a C Class where the max beam(foil tip to foil tip) is limited was not faster than a "normal" displacement C Class.
Among the breakthru's in the TNZ design was-for the first time in history-going with a single main foil and two rudder foils. This allowed a foiler cat to be faster than it's non foiling sister.
--------------
Heres a picture of Rocker attempting a version of Veal Heel. I tried to upload Steve Killings C Class analysis which goes into a lot of detail about Rocker.
You can e-mail me here or on boatdesign and I'll send it.
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Old Sep 11, 2013, 04:07 PM
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Fantastic!

DLord,
I watch every single second of each race at least 10 times! Love every min.!
Can't wait to see the boats up close this weekend!

Question is how will this America's Cup affect RC boats????? got me back to the sport/hobby in a big way!

The racing gets better each race! Hey Oracle get rid of JK he is wrong to many times on current and tacktics! Just watch how offen he is looking at NZL cat- almost never? see him grinding most of the time. This racing is moving to fast to have your tacktician head down!

John Xman
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Old Sep 11, 2013, 04:32 PM
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Ac-86

So- gentlmen,
Count me in on developing a new foiling cat class!

Question is One Design or Controled (Box rule) class or something in the middle?

By this time next year I will have the molds for all the major components (Carbon) for the AC-86 and I should be able to put out this at under 2K
(Hulls, Front and rear cross beams, Wing leading edges, Foil inner boxes, Foil outer box and the Foils) shooting for under 3K build!

John Xman
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Old Sep 11, 2013, 04:33 PM
NORTHLAND NEW ZEALAND
New Zealand, Northland, Totara North
Joined Feb 2012
534 Posts
Yeh that guy just cant get the boat in the right place
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Old Sep 11, 2013, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Xman View Post
So- gentlmen,
Count me in on developing a new foiling cat class!

Question is One Design or Controled (Box rule) class or something in the middle?

By this time next year I will have the molds for all the major components (Carbon) for the AC-86 and I should be able to put out this at under 2K
(Hulls, Front and rear cross beams, Wing leading edges, Foil inner boxes, Foil outer box and the Foils) shooting for under 3K build!

John Xman
==========================
John your boat seems like it will be a true America's Cup model! I wish you luck!
I like your attitude of doing it right.
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Old Sep 11, 2013, 06:19 PM
RC Newbie with lots of ideas
Chile, Santiago Metropolitan Region, Stgo
Joined Dec 2012
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Originally Posted by John Xman View Post
So- gentlmen,
Question is One Design or Controled (Box rule) class or something in the middle?
I would say box rule. 1 meter LOA, similar dimensions as an AC72 (think mast height, platform width & foils depth), foils & wingsail allowed, any material allowed, rudder foils allowed outside side of box.

Who else is in?

(I am already building the plug for my hulls, at 1 meter LOA)
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