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Old Jun 02, 2005, 08:47 PM
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Joined Jul 2004
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Shogun / CC-35 Set-up In Gov Mode

I need some help. I've been following the threads on setting up a CC-25/35 but I'm having problems. MY setup consists of a Himax 3200 brushless motor, CC-35, TP1320 lipo. Hitec Elcipse 7.

The CC-35 is set up as follows:
9v
soft cutoff
disabled
gov low (high gov held the motor at about 2500rmp and I couldn't adjust down to 2400rmp)
soft
ver. 1.14 software


with pitch set to 0 degrees.

1. with the bat. disconnected I set the EPA l/u to 0 (hitec eclipse 7). hook up battery - CC 35 doesn't initialize.
2. increase EPA until CC35 initializes at 5 points to the setting (111).
3. With throttle curve set at 0-inh-50-inh-100 and pitch curve 50-50-50-50-50 (zero pitch) and bat disconnected I set the EPA r/d to 125%.
4. Reconnect battery and run up the throttle try to adjust the EPA at full throttle so that the red light just goes off and add 5 points (80).
5. Now , still with zero pitch I set the throttle curve to 0-50-50-50-50.
6. Go to 100% stick and adjust THCV pt 5 up/down to the desired rpm (89) gives 2300rpm.
7. now set PTCV to 25-inh-50-inh-100 (-3 degrees to 7 degrees pitch) and check the rpm again.

That's the process, now my problem. Another post indicated that the Himax 3200 is good for 2700 @ zero pitch 100% throttle. I can't get my motor above about 2500. The post futher states that 2400rmps is a good setting for this motor on the Shogun. set for -3 to +7 pitch my setup bogs down at full pitch to about 2000rpm. Through the rest of the curve it holds 2300 not 2400.


Is this procedure correct? Am I doing something wrong? Any help would be greatly appriciated.

thanks,

John
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Old Jun 02, 2005, 09:52 PM
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TheX's Avatar
United States, TX, Austin
Joined Sep 2004
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I never got decent RPM's on the CC35 in low gov. High gov works fine for me with the 1.14 software. 1.12 was a miserable experience.
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Old Jun 02, 2005, 11:30 PM
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tadawson's Avatar
Lewisville, TX
Joined Dec 2003
834 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_C
I need some help. I've been following the threads on setting up a CC-25/35 but I'm having problems. MY setup consists of a Himax 3200 brushless motor, CC-35, TP1320 lipo. Hitec Elcipse 7.

The CC-35 is set up as follows:
9v
soft cutoff
disabled
gov low (high gov held the motor at about 2500rmp and I couldn't adjust down to 2400rmp)
soft
ver. 1.14 software


with pitch set to 0 degrees.

1. with the bat. disconnected I set the EPA l/u to 0 (hitec eclipse 7). hook up battery - CC 35 doesn't initialize.
2. increase EPA until CC35 initializes at 5 points to the setting (111).
3. With throttle curve set at 0-inh-50-inh-100 and pitch curve 50-50-50-50-50 (zero pitch) and bat disconnected I set the EPA r/d to 125%.
4. Reconnect battery and run up the throttle try to adjust the EPA at full throttle so that the red light just goes off and add 5 points (80).
5. Now , still with zero pitch I set the throttle curve to 0-50-50-50-50.
6. Go to 100% stick and adjust THCV pt 5 up/down to the desired rpm (89) gives 2300rpm.
7. now set PTCV to 25-inh-50-inh-100 (-3 degrees to 7 degrees pitch) and check the rpm again.

That's the process, now my problem. Another post indicated that the Himax 3200 is good for 2700 @ zero pitch 100% throttle. I can't get my motor above about 2500. The post futher states that 2400rmps is a good setting for this motor on the Shogun. set for -3 to +7 pitch my setup bogs down at full pitch to about 2000rpm. Through the rest of the curve it holds 2300 not 2400.


Is this procedure correct? Am I doing something wrong? Any help would be greatly appriciated.

thanks,

John


Check the max throttle LED when carrying full pitch - it is pretty much a meaningless test otherwise. The LED indicates that the ESC is putting 100% power INTO the motor, and means exactly dick in regard to what throttle setting you are sending via the TX. As such, you want to hit full power out of the ESC at full pitch, not at zero, otherwise, when you go to full pitch, your headspeed will sag something awful. What I did was to spool up and go to full pitch, and increase the throttle on the radio (headspeed, in this case, since in gov mode) and stop just when the LED came on, and check headspeed. If too low, lower max pitch, if too high, raise . . . and I get a dead on accurate speed all the way across my pitch range.

- Tim
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Old Jun 02, 2005, 11:43 PM
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aaaaah you use the pitch to refine the gov,nice one, i was thinking to use the pinion on the motor(within reason off course) nice explanation ,simplest i,ve seen so far.
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Old Jun 03, 2005, 06:51 AM
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Joined Jul 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadawson
Check the max throttle LED when carrying full pitch - it is pretty much a meaningless test otherwise. The LED indicates that the ESC is putting 100% power INTO the motor, and means exactly dick in regard to what throttle setting you are sending via the TX. As such, you want to hit full power out of the ESC at full pitch, not at zero, otherwise, when you go to full pitch, your headspeed will sag something awful. What I did was to spool up and go to full pitch, and increase the throttle on the radio (headspeed, in this case, since in gov mode) and stop just when the LED came on, and check headspeed. If too low, lower max pitch, if too high, raise . . . and I get a dead on accurate speed all the way across my pitch range.

- Tim
I think I see what your saying, and it does explain the bog at full pitch. I'll give it a try. Thanks,
John
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Old Jun 03, 2005, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheX
I never got decent RPM's on the CC35 in low gov. High gov works fine for me with the 1.14 software. 1.12 was a miserable experience.

I'm not sure of how to explain this, but when I tried high gov. I ended up with a throttle setting of less than 10 on my hitec radio and still the head speed hadn't come down to 2400. This was not true with ver 1.11 software. When I changed over to low gov I was able to get 2300 rpm at a setting of 94 on the radio.

John
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Old Jun 03, 2005, 06:58 AM
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Joined Jul 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will p3
aaaaah you use the pitch to refine the gov,nice one, i was thinking to use the pinion on the motor(within reason off course) nice explanation ,simplest i,ve seen so far.
Thanks, I hope I'm approaching this correctly. I was hoping that someone running a similar setup would comment. Tim's post seems to explain the bogging but I still wonder if I'm getting the maximum power out of the CC-35 as I'm still thinking that I should be able to hold 2300 or 2400 at +7 pitch with this motor. A guess my tach could be misreading the speed??

John
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Old Jun 03, 2005, 12:06 PM
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tadawson's Avatar
Lewisville, TX
Joined Dec 2003
834 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_C
Thanks, I hope I'm approaching this correctly. I was hoping that someone running a similar setup would comment. Tim's post seems to explain the bogging but I still wonder if I'm getting the maximum power out of the CC-35 as I'm still thinking that I should be able to hold 2300 or 2400 at +7 pitch with this motor. A guess my tach could be misreading the speed??

John
Not sure what you are using as a tach - if it is a heli tach, probably hard to get wrong. If you use an airplane tach, make sure that you are reading the disk OUTSIDE of the flybar - otherwise, it will see what it thinks is a 4 bladed rotor and will read 2x high.

Regarding the gov mode and speed, this is dependent on the number of poles in the motor - I have seen a document from Castle on this, but can't find it specifically. Basically, the gov modes give a speed which is a constand (defined by Castle) divided by the number of poles in the motor. As such, a motor with a low pole count will run faster than one with a high pole count for a given throttle channel input value in gov mode. That is the reason for high and low modes - to accomodate different motor types and pole counts.

Regarding getting maximum power out of your motor, if the red LED is on, the controller is balls out maxed, there is no more to be had with that combination. If you are not getting what you think you should regarding headspeed then maybe:

1) Your battery is too small for that motor/combo, and voltage is sagging.

2) Pitch is being read wrong - you are carrying more than you think.

3) Wrong pinion causing motor to bog.

4) Unrealistic expectations for that setup . . . .

- Tim
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Old Jun 03, 2005, 12:22 PM
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Lewisville, TX
Joined Dec 2003
834 Posts
My thoughts on CC gov, mode setup for helis.

To summarize my previous posts, here is what I think is a pretty good procedure to setup a gov on a CC controller.

First, I will assume that the target is a given head speed, and not a pitch range, let's say 2200 RPM.

1) Set a straight line throttle curve: 0 - 50 - 100, and a zero pitch pitch curve: 50 - 50 - 50 for testing.

2) Select low gov mode and spool up with the pitch set to 0. See what speed range you get. If you can't get to 2200, shutdown, switch to high gov. and retry. One range or the other should work. If you can't get low to go quite high enough, check your ATVs - Castle expanded the range in later builds, and you can go up to about 120% on the throttle ATVs and be effective. Conversely, if the controller won't arm, increase the low ATV until it will. For me, this was about 115% on a JR radio.

3) Based on which mode worked for you to get 2200, and the value you needed, set your throttle curve accordingly. Let's say that was 65% in hi gov as an example, and thus set your throttle curve to something like: 0 65 65 - 65 for normal mode, and 65 - 65 - 65 for idle ups.

4) Set your pitch curve to what you think you will be flying in idleup - ideally a straight line 0 - 50 - 100.

5) Spool up and verify head speed is 2200 at center stick (low pitch).

6) Go to full stick and see where the red LED comes on. While at full stick, adjust either the throttle curve or pitch channel ATV so that the red LED just comes on at full stick.
This ensures that you are giving the maximum power output from the motor, at the maximum possible pitch on your helicopter. Ideally, in flight, the head will unload a bit and give you a bit more headroom, but then again, we have not considered cyclic loading here either, so I vote leave it as is, and one will compensate for the other.

7) Repeat step 6 for bottom stick. This will give you the maximim amount of negative pitch for that headspeed on your helicopter.

8) Verify that as you go from low to high stick that your headspeed does not sag. If it does, then recheck steps 6 and 7 . . . .

9) From this, you now know your absolute maximim and minimum pitches for that headspeed. Apply them accordingly in normal flight mode as desired.

10) You should be good to go . . . .

=====================================

As an alternate, if a pilot chooses to have a certain pitch range and take whatever head speed that gives, you can proceed similarly as above, but in steps 6 and 7, tweak the throttle channel to just get the red LED to determine what throttle setting to use. Headspeed will them be the maximum possible for that pitch range.

The key thing to remember here is that in gov. mode, the throttle channel does NOT have any direct relationship to the power output of the ESC! It is just requesting that the ESC regulate itself to a given motor speed. The ESC can use whatever power output it deems necessary to get to that speed, but cannot create power where none is to be had! That is why the red LED indication is there on the controller - it is effectively the "Game Over" indicator which tells you that the controller is ceasing to regulate speed because it is trying to output more power than it is capable of, and as such, headspeed will begin to decrease as soon as this indicator is lit!

I hope this helps.

- Tim
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Old Jun 03, 2005, 12:24 PM
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United States, FL, Apopka
Joined Mar 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_C
Thanks, I hope I'm approaching this correctly. I was hoping that someone running a similar setup would comment. Tim's post seems to explain the bogging but I still wonder if I'm getting the maximum power out of the CC-35 as I'm still thinking that I should be able to hold 2300 or 2400 at +7 pitch with this motor. A guess my tach could be misreading the speed??

John

I think it's your battery... I ran a 2025-3200 with a 10t pinion and could maintain a 2400 head speed. I used an Apogee 1570mah pack.

Check out this post on how to setup the governor mode properly.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=100
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Old Jun 06, 2005, 08:32 PM
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Tim/wreckrman2 thanks for the input. I was out of town this weekend and couldn't respond to your posts. I'll give it another try tomorrow. I'll order an Apogee 1570...I didn't know there would be that much difference between batteries.

JOhn
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Old Jun 06, 2005, 08:50 PM
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Joined Mar 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_C
I didn't know there would be that much difference between batteries.

JOhn
Oh ya... there can be a huge difference.
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Old Jun 06, 2005, 08:55 PM
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United States, TX, Austin
Joined Sep 2004
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I had better luck with the 1.14 software than 1.12 but 1.11 worked fine in low gov also. I was getting insane head speed, even with the E-Flight Park 400 4200KV.
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Old Jun 07, 2005, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WreckRman2
Oh ya... there can be a huge difference.
That's interesting and must mean that if you have two batteries for example a TP1320 and A1570 you would need a radio set-up for each, you may need even need to fly at different rpms / pitch setting based on battery alone. this wasn't even on my radar screen.

thanks,
John
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Old Jun 07, 2005, 09:56 PM
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Joined Mar 2005
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Is a CC25 adequate or shoulg one have the CC35 (I was sold a CC25). I am using the Hobby People brushless motor.
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